CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

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  • CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

    Greetings CFC members and governors,

    I will try to explain matters pertaining to the web site as has been explained to me by our contractor, EKG.

    As many of you know the CFC website was hacked and became infected. Our contractor for office services, EKG stepped in and began almost at once to work on the problem. What many people do not know (I certainly did not) is that Google scans sites and when they become infected, Google tags the site so that web browsers will be sent an error message.

    The site has been cleaned up by EKG and their IT specialists are in contact with Google to rescan the site and give it a clean bill of health, that is, its seal of approval. However like any huge company, it takes time for them to deal with any requests for help. It reminds one of the government. For those naysayers, Google is that powerful and until they get around to it, their inaction keeps our site from operating.

    As for the site itself, it was developed by the previous office staff and typical of most software developers, it was made in such a way to make it difficult for anyone except for the creator to maintain and upgrade the site. That is how software specialists keep the revenues flowing with follow-on maintenance contracts. The fact is the budget presented at this year's CFC AGM set aside money to develop a new web site as well as a web magazine. The attendees of the meeting including Bob Armstrong were not too happy about what they perceived as putting good money after bad regarding the web site and the e-magazine.

    The web site is like a piece of factory machinery or an automobile. One can keep spending money to repair it but at some point, one has to make a calculation on what is more economical: Repairs or replacement. That is what I meant that the CFC Executive is considering the option of a new site. This means that the CFC Executive unfortunately are still dealing with transitional costs that were part of David Lavin's tenure as president.

    If some of you sharp IT specialists would like to make a proposal on a new web site and volunteer your time in creating a website and give all the intellectual property rights to the CFC, please send you proposals to my email account: president@chess.ca

    As some of you know, the Stratford festival is presenting Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. All I can say to my new best friend, Kevin is, "Et tu Brute'. I was hoping our honeymoon would have lasted a little longer.

    I acknowledge that people are impatient and want the situation solved yesterday. Until I get the use of a TARDIS, I am requesting some understanding and patience on your part. To all of those kibitzers, I would respectfully remind you that it is always easier to play someone else's pieces than your own.

    In closing, a few people have volunteered to help the CFC with its web site, and I would very much like to thank them for their interest.

    Eric Van Dusen
    CFC President

  • #2
    Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

    Hi Eric:

    Thanks for the update. It seems some IT members disagree that the CFC website cannot/should not go back on line now. They do not see Google as having any power to stop this. They seem to be saying that the site can have a simple notice for those getting the google virus warning, that the site is now clean, and we are just awaiting the google " bill of good health ", which takes them a bit of time to get to. Has the executive considered this option, and what is their response?

    As a further clarification on my personal opinion, I had reservations about the CFC Webzine, and CFC's ability to maintain it $ wise, and make it competitive. In the summer of 2007, the Grassroots' Campaign suggested as an alternate, an electronic newsletter to all members, something the CFC has now finally adopted. And my concern about the money set aside for Webzine development in the Lavin budget, was that the webzine is too expensive, and too labour intensive, for CFC to deliver a quality product. That was all about the Webzine. There was no discussion at the time in the AGM about a new CFC website to my recollection - I'll recheck the minutes.

    But I have some misgivings if this is the time to spend $ 20,000 on a new website, when we for the first time in 5 years have a surplus. The CFC website, in the words of Governor Zeromskis, is nothing special, but it functions and provides basic members' services. I have no idea about your concern that it is difficult to maintain because it is unique to our past developer ( whom I assume was someone before Vincent Chow, since he seemed to develop the new Webzine, alongside the existing CFC website ). If it is indeed not maintainable and not upgradable, then I agree this is a serious problem. But what is the cost to be for a new site - Is Kevin in the ballpark with $ 20,000? Chris Mallon has offered to do it for $ 10,000. You have said there have been some volunteers to help with the virus attack problem. But are they willing to volunteer to develop a whole website? They may only be willing to be free consultants to a formal new website developer. I guess this item of cost really needs to be on the table, for the governors to discuss whether they will enter into a totally new website. And how are we to guarantee that this new website will not be equally impossible to maintain and upgrade without future developer contracts, because no one else will know how to do it?

    Food for thought.

    Thanks for dialoguing on it with everyone.

    Bob

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

      Twenty thousand is pretty crazy as an amount to spend on a website such as the CFC's. I can put you in touch with at least two companies which do this for a living and have done similar or more complex sites for a fraction of that price. They also provide interfaces that a completely computer illiterate person can use to run and update a complex website. Put it out to tender and I will have those companies consider it and provide a bid if they are interested and they probably would be with the numbers that you are throwing around. The number that I heard is that websites cost about $100 per page and often you can get them done for less than that.

      Reverse engineering the current site should be possible regardless of how complex or messy the previous developers made it. Its all html, php or asp or fancy text files. The only messy part from what I can see is the rating system because it is written in an old version of dbase if my understanding is correct. I would have to take a look at that but updating it to something like mySQL or Microsoft SQL Server (available in free versions) would probably be a good idea though it might not be necessary. I last used dbase on any consistent basis in the early nineties. There may be open source replacements for it out there and in fact I think I noticed some of them a couple of years ago. I probably have copies (legal with all licenses) of dbase 4 and 5 kicking around but dbase 3 I don't though a dbase 3 program should run on a dbase 4 or 5 platform.

      Anything that I did for the CFC or anyone else would be done on the basis that the client gets the source code and a license to modify the application as they see fit and the right to use it in perpetuity but the demand for all intellectual property rights for something done for free seems a bit excessive and open to abuse. I have never agreed to anything like that when I was getting paid to do it and it doesn't seem reasonable to start doing that when doing something for free.

      Your demand could potentially create a liability such that if the developer created a button on a future website that was similar to one that he developed on the CFC website he could get sued. That is wrong and the statements that are being made on technical issues would cause concern that such litigation could arise out of a misunderstanding on the CFC's part.

      "Google is that powerful and until they get around to it, their inaction keeps our site from operating."

      That is incorrect but probably based on a misunderstanding. At the very least, if the old site is clean, you could put up a mirror of it somewhere else while waiting for google to do whatever you need them to do. Any new site would not have the google warning attached to it unless the fixed site got hacked.

      Register a website like www.chesscanada.org or chess1.ca and put the old website up there. If you do it through GoDaddy or Powweb you can probably do it for $7 to $15 per month. No google warning there and once you get the old site sorted out you can redirect people there.

      Vladimir Drkulec

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

        Hi Eric,

        As Vlad stated, it's quite unlikely you'll get anyone willing to do the entire CFC website for free, and do a good job of it at the same time, and especially give you full IP rights.

        With all due respect, I've been in your shoes, "playing your pieces" as you say. There are absolutely ZERO reasons to not turn the site back on this very instant. People can click through the Google warnings if their browser happens to show them.

        Also don't try blaming David Lavin for this. I've personally been trying to get the website redone since the time of Halldor Pallson as President. That's quite a few different executives in there. Also the designers were about five office staffs ago. The site is ancient and there is no shame in wanting to completely replace it.

        If you want the site redone by volunteers (again, good luck with that) what exactly are you going to spend the $20,000 I had budgeted for on?

        Chris
        Christopher Mallon
        FIDE Arbiter

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

          Hi Chris:

          The intention of the AGM in July was that at least $ 10,000 of that money be used to help develop bids for the national championships. Our system seems very fragile, and we are often getting bids at the last minute, or even no bids at all. It may be that more willingness to bid might be encouraged if the CFC took a more proactive stand, and we thought this might require some $$ resources to help accomplish it.

          The other $ 10,000, I would think, could be a website maintenance/upgrade fund.

          Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: ontario chess

            Originally posted by Christopher Mallon View Post
            If you want the site redone by volunteers
            __________________
            Christopher Mallon
            President,
            Ontario Chess Association
            Chris, may you answer to my email and a message left for you some month ago?

            "Hi Chris,
            As I have not got any answer, I posting the email (2009-05-22) here.
            best regards,
            Egis


            Hi Chris,

            As I see, there is a demand for the virile/active Ontario Chess webpage. I might take responsibility to manage it with some conditions:
            * contents managements would be done with WordPress (http://wordpress.org, what would require PHP and setup MySQL database.
            * installation of additional plug-ins for the chess games overview (e.g.,
            http://www.kris-egis.com/chegis/inde...200809-3-ratas )
            * no "true-fancy" design from my side (I prefer simple things, check my logo :))
            http://www.kris-egis.com/chegis/wp-c...header_img.jpg
            * as it is hobby for me, no strict and immediate deadlines for posting messages/announcements.

            Credentials: http://www.kris-egis.com/chegis (the most active chess news website in Lithuania)

            Let me know what you think. (I assume you will be re-elected :)

            Best regards,
            Egis"

            It is still valid ;)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

              Eric if you don't have evidence to support the following assertion then it sounds like a slur on someone's professional reputation.

              Eric wrote: As for the site itself, it was developed by the previous office staff and typical of most software developers, it was made in such a way to make it difficult for anyone except for the creator to maintain and upgrade the site.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: ontario chess

                Hi Egis,

                I'm fairly sure that I did reply to that. I no longer have my email history from back then however. I'll be in touch shortly.

                Chris
                Christopher Mallon
                FIDE Arbiter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: ontario chess

                  Originally posted by Christopher Mallon View Post
                  I'll be in touch shortly.Chris
                  received and replyed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                    Originally posted by Ken Craft View Post
                    Eric if you don't have evidence to support the following assertion then it sounds like a slur on someone's professional reputation.

                    Eric wrote: As for the site itself, it was developed by the previous office staff and typical of most software developers, it was made in such a way to make it difficult for anyone except for the creator to maintain and upgrade the site.
                    Is it possible on this site to express legitimate opinions without having some professionnal second guesser coming in with some righteous advice to protect who knows who from who knows what ? If I dare to say that GM X came to a game insufficiently prepared, am I exposing myself to be sued for damaging his professionnal reputation ? Come on.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                      Not to mention Eric's statement (at least the part about making it difficult for others to work on) was completely true. They even have competitions for who can write the most obfuscated source code.
                      Christopher Mallon
                      FIDE Arbiter

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                        Originally posted by Christopher Mallon View Post
                        Not to mention Eric's statement (at least the part about making it difficult for others to work on) was completely true. They even have competitions for who can write the most obfuscated source code.
                        M$ Word save as HTML should be not far from the winners :)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                          We're mixing two very different actions in this discussion. First, there is the mark-up of text to make it look nice in a web browser.

                          Second, there is programming which involves processing data (say the results of a tournament) to produce new data (say the finish-order crosstable of said tournament and the new ratings).

                          Inconveniently, there is also web scripting which may involve both.

                          The vast bulk of the CFC website involves mark-up. It is not subject to viruses. There are sites where you can type in text, they will mark it up for you and display (host) it for free. When I hear the concept "design a web site", I think of that. It's basically free. You can make it look good or bad, but if you use CSS, even your bad sense of aesthetics can often be washed away. Also, mark-up is open, anybody can see it by clicking > View > Source in their browser.

                          But what I think is really meant in this disucssion is more towards the programming side of the spectrum. The CFC rating and membership program was written by me circa 1980. In 1997, Troy Vail thought it was time to rewrite the program. I'm a bit vague on what language he wrote it in, but it was a Microsoft language in the Visual BASIC - Access - Access BASIC family. CFC paid for his training! He examined my code from 1980, and phoned me a couple of times with questions, but he rewrote all the code.

                          It is conceivable to spend $20,000 designing a website. You'd need a darned good reason, though. The most popular website in the world, google, has a spare laconic design that might have cost $1.49, but the company is worth billions. So much for eye candy. Other sites may provide extras (games database at chessgames.com, wmv videos at chessclub.com, game replay software at almost everywhere but not necessarily the CFC...).

                          I think that what is being suggested is not a re-design, but re-programming.

                          It is ironic that the CFC website has been split up (not necessarily a bad thing) and immediately we are faced with the proposal to re-design a stub of the former site for $20,000 ! Is it just me, or is anybody else basking in the Zen of this 21st century CFC-ishness?

                          And excuse me for melding mark-up with programming.

                          Incidentally, the CFC site might be down, but anybody who wants to examine typical CFC website code (and see the screen results!) can do so via the Internet Archive - Wayback Machine. They seem to have stopped collecting info in early 2008, I'm not sure why, but there's many pages for 2000 to 2007.

                          http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.chess.ca

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                            I have tried to stay away, but I can't.

                            I chose Joomla as the Content Management System because it is argueably the most popular and best supported. If I chose anything else I could be accused of locking it to myself. The problem is that the present administration was chosen despite inadequate knowledge of PHP and Joomla.

                            Nobody consulted me about this virus. All sites are subject to attack. We were attacked last year, but I took care of it the same day! If the virus has been cleaned then the site can be used and then a decision can be made on a new site at a later time. This legacy website was developed years before my time. It was probably state of the art at that time. If still works why not use it? Also, there is no reason why the webzine as is cannot be reinstated. There is little difference between a webzine and a newsletter.

                            $20K is too much for a new website.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: CFC Website Update 2009-09-14

                              Originally posted by Jonathan Berry View Post
                              We're mixing two very different actions in this discussion. First, there is the mark-up of text to make it look nice in a web browser.

                              Second, there is programming which involves processing data (say the results of a tournament) to produce new data (say the finish-order crosstable of said tournament and the new ratings).

                              Inconveniently, there is also web scripting which may involve both.

                              The vast bulk of the CFC website involves mark-up. It is not subject to viruses. There are sites where you can type in text, they will mark it up for you and display (host) it for free. When I hear the concept "design a web site", I think of that. It's basically free. You can make it look good or bad, but if you use CSS, even your bad sense of aesthetics can often be washed away. Also, mark-up is open, anybody can see it by clicking > View > Source in their browser.

                              But what I think is really meant in this disucssion is more towards the programming side of the spectrum. The CFC rating and membership program was written by me circa 1980. In 1997, Troy Vail thought it was time to rewrite the program. I'm a bit vague on what language he wrote it in, but it was a Microsoft language in the Visual BASIC - Access - Access BASIC family. CFC paid for his training! He examined my code from 1980, and phoned me a couple of times with questions, but he rewrote all the code.

                              It is conceivable to spend $20,000 designing a website. You'd need a darned good reason, though. The most popular website in the world, google, has a spare laconic design that might have cost $1.49, but the company is worth billions. So much for eye candy. Other sites may provide extras (games database at chessgames.com, wmv videos at chessclub.com, game replay software at almost everywhere but not necessarily the CFC...).

                              I think that what is being suggested is not a re-design, but re-programming.

                              It is ironic that the CFC website has been split up (not necessarily a bad thing) and immediately we are faced with the proposal to re-design a stub of the former site for $20,000 ! Is it just me, or is anybody else basking in the Zen of this 21st century CFC-ishness?

                              And excuse me for melding mark-up with programming.

                              Incidentally, the CFC site might be down, but anybody who wants to examine typical CFC website code (and see the screen results!) can do so via the Internet Archive - Wayback Machine. They seem to have stopped collecting info in early 2008, I'm not sure why, but there's many pages for 2000 to 2007.

                              http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.chess.ca
                              Please read what Jonathan said. Please read what Vlad D. has said. Please read what many other people have said.

                              Right now I see a contractor looking to upgrade a "legacy system" because they can convince somebody that it ****needs**** to be done otherwise *****GOOGLE***** won't like it. The CFC has scant capital, the website ran for years, but now there seems to be a "compelling reason" to spend $$$ and, errr, make it like the webzine??? Where were the $$$ then??? The only complicated stuff with the CFC website is the link to the back-end database for ratings and the merchandise which they no longer sell. AFAIK the ONLY serious legacy nonsense to deal with is the maintenance of that database and the pages that link to it. Quite frankly that database is the only real asset the CFC has at the moment, that and the code to make it accessible. Oh wait. That's off-line. Oh wait. We're going to change it. Replace it with something "better" which, might eventually look the same ... in the fullness of time ... at the right juncture.

                              I can already smell record cards burning.

                              Sheesh.

                              Steve

                              Comment

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