Is this a zugzwang?

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  • Is this a zugzwang?

    White K on e8, pawn on f7, knight on e7.
    Black K on g7, bishop on f8.

    Black to move.

    This is from an argument between Robert Hamilton and me.

    The position is from the end of a nice study that I'll post later.
    Last edited by John Bleau; Tuesday, 17th January, 2017, 01:37 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Is this a zugzwang?

    A tablebase shows a mate in 10:

    Mate in -10 moves 1... Kf6 2. Kxf8 Ke5 3. Kg7 Kd6 4. f8Q Ke5 5. Qf7 Kd4 6. Qb3 Kc5 7. Qa4 Kd6 8. Qb5 Kxe7 9. Qd5 Ke8 10. Kf6 Kf8 11. Qf7#[*]

    I guess it's zugzwang if Black is forced to leave his B unprotected, or trade it for the N and allow the P to queen.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re : Is this a zugzwang?

      Originally posted by John Bleau View Post
      White K on e8, pawn on f7, knight on e7.
      Black K on g7, bishop on f8.

      Black to move.

      This is from an argument between Robert Hamilton and me.

      The position is from the end of a nice study that I'll post later.
      It is not a zugzwang because White wins too if he has the move.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re : Is this a zugzwang?

        Originally posted by Louis Morin View Post
        It is not a zugzwang because White wins too if he has the move.
        My thinking as well.

        A real zugzwang would be a draw if the defending side could just 'pass'. In the position above, white to move wins easily by playing Nf5+

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        • #5
          Re: Re : Is this a zugzwang?

          Originally posted by Louis Morin View Post
          It is not a zugzwang because White wins too if he has the move.
          yup.

          Let's assume the last White move was Ne7, and Black is lost (not in zugzwang).

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Re : Is this a zugzwang?

            It seems a lot of people confuse 'zugzwang' for a position where any move loses.

            For me, the hard definition of a zugzwang would be a position where any move loses BUT you could draw (or win) if you could just 'pass' the move to the opponent. Best example being the pawn endgame: white pawn on e7, king on d6 and black king on e8. Black to move is in zugzwang because if he does move, he loses. While passing the move to white would be a draw.

            But to be fair, it also true that we hear about the other definition of a zugzwang i.e. a position where eventually any move would damage your position in some way. The classic example being the immortal zugzwang game by Nimzo where, in the end position, black (Nimzo) doesn't even have to play actively, as he can just wait and white will have to move, thereby weakening his position.
            Last edited by Mathieu Cloutier; Tuesday, 17th January, 2017, 11:46 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: Is this a zugzwang?

              Thank you, Gentlemen,

              I now give the starting position, but first, it's interesting that Karlsen Müller posted a N vs B ending on his ChessBase blog just today. See here.

              The position we examined is tougher (the image uploader is hardly user-friendly, so I'll just give the diagram specs; there are only 5 pieces):
              W: K e6, N e5, P f6; B: K g8, B b2, White to play and win.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                Originally posted by John Bleau View Post
                Thank you, Gentlemen,

                I now give the starting position, but first, it's interesting that Karlsen Müller posted a N vs B ending on his ChessBase blog just today. See here.

                The position we examined is tougher (the image uploader is hardly user-friendly, so I'll just give the diagram specs; there are only 5 pieces):
                W: K e6, N e5, P f6; B: K g8, B b2, White to play and win.
                It looks like the diagram/image uploader here on ChessTalk simply doesn't work.
                I tried creating a small diagram and even though the file size was 13K the uploader said it exceeded the allowed size by 43K! Now, that is some Trump calculation for ya!


                Last edited by Kerry Liles; Tuesday, 17th January, 2017, 01:23 PM. Reason: corrected as per Egis' example
                ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                  Originally posted by John Bleau View Post
                  The position we examined is tougher (the image uploader is hardly user-friendly, so I'll just give the diagram specs; there are only 5 pieces):
                  W: K e6, N e5, P f6; B: K g8, B b2, White to play and win.

                  White to move.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                    Thanks. I had forgotten that it is possible to just use an img tag...
                    Last edited by Kerry Liles; Tuesday, 17th January, 2017, 01:26 PM. Reason: remove likely incorrect short version of "Egidijus"
                    ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                      It is not zugswang, but it might be intellectual property.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                        Originally posted by Tony Li View Post
                        It is not zugswang, but it might be intellectual property.
                        Do tell. I hope I am not the only person wondering what you mean...
                        ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                          First, thanks for the diagram uploads.

                          Mr. Li's reference is to R. Hamilton's efforts to have chess games copyrighted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                            Originally posted by John Bleau View Post
                            First, thanks for the diagram uploads.

                            Mr. Li's reference is to R. Hamilton's efforts to have chess games copyrighted.
                            You are welcome. As for the reference to the litigation - of course. silly me.
                            ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Is this a zugzwang?

                              Originally posted by John Bleau View Post
                              First, thanks for the diagram uploads.

                              Mr. Li's reference is to R. Hamilton's efforts to have chess games copyrighted.
                              Copyrighting chess games?

                              Can I copyright some tic-tac-toe games I've played? Because that would be some serious money. Everytime someone replays the moves, I get my share.

                              Comment

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