A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

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  • #31
    Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

    Advertising in the bulletin for time sensitive tournaments probably does not make sense. Advertising on the website and free forums does make sense. You only have to cut and paste your tournament announcement on Chesstalk to that forum. It takes a few seconds. I usually post on the CFC forum first and cut and paste to chesstalk when making announcements. Its not clear to me if this policy applies to things like WYCC, WCCC and NAYCC etc. where we are simply communicating to players about a tournament which we are not proprietors of. If so, you will have to go to the CFC forum and website to find out about them going forward.

    The security situation here is also concerning with the continual coinhive warning from malwarebytes. If this can persist this long who is to say that the next hack might not contain an injection of a new zero day ransomware variant.
    Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Wednesday, 13th December, 2017, 01:04 AM.

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    • #32
      Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

      Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
      Advertising in the bulletin for time sensitive tournaments probably does not make sense. Advertising on the website and free forums does make sense.
      Sounds backwards to me. If a player wants to learn about a tournament they have to go to a website. For the majority of players sitting back at home, they need to be contacted to remind them to play in chess tournaments. I believe that energy has to be put into getting the casual/part-time/yearly player's attention, not putting the onus on players to exert energy to find out about events. Having to rely on players to search loses more and more players each year.

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      • #33
        Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

        Originally posted by Razvan Preotu View Post
        Maybe now is the time for the organizers to use the CFC free listing service from http://chess.ca/tournaments
        That's what we're going to be forced to do up in Sudbury. Our tournaments generate next to nothing in terms of revenue so $100 is impossible. For the forum, I completely see the logic. But personally, we'll be using the CFC tournament listings only once this policy takes effect.

        What will likely end up happening is, despite the reasonable price, people will use the CFC website rather than this one (Free>Cheap). Over time people will stop checking ChessTalk for tournament listings.

        But I was wrong once before so who knows...

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        • #34
          Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

          Originally posted by Erik Malmsten View Post
          Sounds backwards to me. If a player wants to learn about a tournament they have to go to a website. For the majority of players sitting back at home, they need to be contacted to remind them to play in chess tournaments. I believe that energy has to be put into getting the casual/part-time/yearly player's attention, not putting the onus on players to exert energy to find out about events. Having to rely on players to search loses more and more players each year.
          Most organizers do send emails. I send them all the time myself on behalf of other organizers. People do check the tournament listings for details of the tournament because it is not always easy to find the particular email.

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          • #35
            Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

            Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
            Most organizers do send emails. I send them all the time myself on behalf of other organizers. People do check the tournament listings for details of the tournament because it is not always easy to find the particular email.
            I have only run 2 tournament, but I send emails, use Facebook, Chesstalk, chess.ca, post flyers, use ACA website, and I still only go 41 players. I would say my best advertizing is when I show up at other tournaments and post a flyer and make an announcement before a round -- this was a technique I learned from David Lavin many years ago. Of course, this is the best target audience, since they are active players. Hopefully more next year. Being featured in Chessbase News, hopefully will help. Last year tournament cost me about $400, but that is about how much I would pay to play in a tournament outside of Banff. Like I said, it is giving back to chess. I am trying to emulate the late Peter Stockhausen's Belleville Opens.

            I also think the fact that I am willing to put some of my own money into the tournament helps attract sponsors. I have already got a new sponsor for next year, which is the Banff Centre's Union! Hopefully this tournament will grow. We had a $1135 prize fund last year, but when you consider the tournament's 'real' expenses were about $6000, and $935 revenue from entry fees, I would say the players got a good deal. I hope to grow the tournament to over 100 players, since I will only be in Banff for a few more years.

            I will probably end up paying the $20 myself, since I have already heard the ACA is not keen to use this means of advertizing. I think is it a bargain, especially if you try to advertize anywhere else. But hard to get people to pay for what they used to get for free.

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            • #36
              Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

              Originally posted by Ian Findlay View Post
              I will probably end up paying the $20 myself, since I have already heard the ACA is not keen to use this means of advertizing. I think is it a bargain, especially if you try to advertize anywhere else. But hard to get people to pay for what they used to get for free.
              Hi Ian, as part of yet to be determined 2018 Banff Open sponsorship would it be alright if we grabbed that tab?

              Also, I hope that Larry could do a direct email to his CMA member's list ...don't paying a slight increase for that service either.

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              • #37
                Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                Thanks Neil, that would be great -- funny we had already discussed advertizing. Our tournament for 2018 should get ACA approval in January, then we can go ahead.

                Also thanks to SoCA.

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                • #38
                  Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                  Originally posted by Roger Patterson View Post
                  Anyway, the economics of paying Larry $20/event or $100/year seems pretty simple. Does advertising on Chess Talk bring in one more entry? Yes/no? That entry will pay for the advertising.
                  Just to be clear - you think that each entry into an event generates $20 worth of direct revenue to the event? That is definitely some simple economics.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                    Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post
                    Just to be clear - you think that each entry into an event generates $20 worth of direct revenue to the event? That is definitely some simple economics.
                    Can I try some simple economics:

                    Common-Enough Registration Fee - $ 60

                    Average Canadian Tournament Field - 60 registrants (Let's assume 40% are responding to and following announcements on CT - Is this accurate?)

                    Total Gate from CT - $ 1, 440 ($ 60 x 24)

                    Prizes and Expenses (Not Including CT Advertising) - 90% of Gate (Organizers - would this be in the ballpark?). So Profit on CT Ad = $ 144

                    Net After CT Ad Cost - $ 124 ($ 144 - $ 20)

                    IF the above projections are correct, is this not a financially worthwhile effort on CT??

                    Bob

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                    • #40
                      Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                      Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
                      Can I try some simple economics:

                      Common-Enough Registration Fee - $ 60

                      Average Canadian Tournament Field - 60 registrants (Let's assume 40% are responding to and following announcements on CT - Is this accurate?)

                      Total Gate from CT - $ 1, 440 ($ 60 x 24)

                      Prizes and Expenses (Not Including CT Advertising) - 90% of Gate (Organizers - would this be in the ballpark?). So Profit on CT Ad = $ 144

                      Net After CT Ad Cost - $ 124 ($ 144 - $ 20)

                      IF the above projections are correct, is this not a financially worthwhile effort on CT??

                      Bob
                      My point is that the original statement is "one extra entry pays for the fee". In your example, 90% of every entry fee is going to prizes and expenses, so if the CT ad creates one more $60 entry, it generates $6 in revenue for the event, thus costing you $14.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                        Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post
                        My point is that the original statement is "one extra entry pays for the fee". In your example, 90% of every entry fee is going to prizes and expenses, so if the CT ad creates one more $60 entry, it generates $6 in revenue for the event, thus costing you $14.
                        err.... no. In the example given, EF is $60. Variable costs associated with each player are usually just rating fees $3.15 as most costs are fixed but there might be other costs (in BC, BCCF dues $3 plus sometimes we pay TD $/player). So net marginal revenue in Bob's case is $56.85 or maybe a bit less depending on location and TD arrangement.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                          Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post
                          My point is that the original statement is "one extra entry pays for the fee". In your example, 90% of every entry fee is going to prizes and expenses, so if the CT ad creates one more $60 entry, it generates $6 in revenue for the event, thus costing you $14.
                          Wouldn't the advertising also be an expense and thus not necessarily go directly into prizes?

                          I haven't gotten any response on whether announcements for WYCC, WCCC, NAYCC, U16 Olympiad, Pan Am Youth and so on fall into this new policy. There are considerable sums involved sometimes with official players getting food and accommodation. We do not get any revenue as a result of these events. Until I hear differently we will be limiting our advertising to the CFC website and forums. Please consult those forums if you want information about such upcoming events.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                            This is a terrible move by chesstalk.

                            Right now, chesstalk is a great outlet for promoting your events. Right now, the $20 advertising fee is worth it. BUT, once this rule comes into effect, many organizers will choose not to advertise on here. Once players will realize that only a fraction of Canada's tournaments are being promoted here many of them will stop using the forum. Once traffic declines, the value of advertising on here will plummet.

                            To make matters worse this creates a feedback loop. Traffic declines, so fewer organizers choose to advertise here, so fewer players check it and traffic further decreases, so fewer organizers advertise, so on and so on. The value of chesstalk is derived from its traffic, and this rule will significantly decrease traffic over time.

                            I don't understand why you don't just throw in a small advertisement instead? Ad revenue is steady and won't devalue your website nearly as much as this policy will.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                              Personally speaking, I look at discussions on threads like this http://forum.chesstalk.com/showthrea...880#post120880 and wonder why I would want to pay to advertise on a board that allows such a chain of posts to continue.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Re : Re: A new policy for Chesstalk beginning Jan 1, 2018

                                Originally posted by Garland Best View Post
                                Personally speaking, I look at discussions on threads like this http://forum.chesstalk.com/showthrea...880#post120880 and wonder why I would want to pay to advertise on a board that allows such a chain of posts to continue.

                                And it was okay to promote your tournaments in this same liberal environment before L.B.'s ad fee?

                                Real dollar value to me would be tournament promotion through CMA's email list ...assuming CMA has an email list. I wonder if any orgs have asked their tournament participants where they heard of the tournament?

                                Surveys are prolly to advanced for something like the CFC rated chess ...or at least to much effort to get done ;)

                                Who needs data anyways, data shmata.

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