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what is thought about this position? its drawing but Im struggling to find the continuation, ideas are either Bc3 or Bxc5 but under time pressure I played Kg7 out of instinct blundering the game away -
Thank you for looking into this.Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
24.... Kxa3 looses (tables tell me so) 25. Qd3+ https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/.../2q5_b_-_-_0_1
If Black will be able to capture a a3 pawn with the Queen when White Ke6 it's draw
https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/...k6/8_w_-_-_0_1
White can not go Ke4 if Black has a check on b1 or c2.
Thus
24...Qf1+
25. Ke3 (to escape through d4-c5) Qg1! +
26. Ke2 ( not 26. Kd2 Qf2 =) Qg2+
26. Ke3 (back) Qg1
27. Kf4 )toward e6) Qf2+
28. Kg4 Qg2+
29. Kf5 Qf3+
30. Ke6 Qxa3 = tablebase
So it seems it is a drawn position after all as the Neustadtl - Porges (1901) game ended.Leave a comment:
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instead of 19...Kb2Originally posted by Emil Smilovici View PostAfter 18...Kxc3, we have:
White plays and after: 19.f5
19.... gxf5 (to leave less pawns)
Two variations: A) g6 or B) h6 (Ke2 look like a waste of a move)
A
20. g6 fxg6 21. hxg6 Kb2 22. g7 c3 23. g8Q c2
24. Qxe6 c1Q 25. Qd6 {25. Qb6+ Kxa3 and 25. Qxf5 = tablebase} Qf1+ (Black turn to check and seems they hold it)
B
20. h6 (to have more pawns) Kb2 22. h7 c3 23. h8Q c2 =Leave a comment:
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24.... Kxa3 looses (tables tell me so) 25. Qd3+ https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/.../2q5_b_-_-_0_1Originally posted by Emil Smilovici View Postwe reach:
with Black to play.
White looks better but is it a win?
If Black will be able to capture a a3 pawn with the Queen when White Ke6 it's draw
https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/...k6/8_w_-_-_0_1
White can not go Ke4 if Black has a check on b1 or c2.
Thus
24...Qf1+
25. Ke3 (to escape through d4-c5) Qg1! +
26. Ke2 ( not 26. Kd2 Qf2 =) Qg2+
26. Ke3 (back) Qg1
27. Kf4 )toward e6) Qf2+
28. Kg4 Qg2+
29. Kf5 Qf3+
30. Ke6 Qxa3 = tablebase
Leave a comment:
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After 18...Kxc3, we have:
White plays and after:
19.f5 Kb2 20.hxg6 fxg6 21.fxe6 c3 22.e7 c2 23.e8Q c1Q 24.Qxg6
we reach:
with Black to play.
White looks better but is it a win?Leave a comment:
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Can we be the only people in the world to be questioning previous conclusions regarding Neustadtl-Porges? It seems to me that someone else must have looked at this and maybe there is a current leading authority on pawn endings who could be turned to. I wonder if there is someone with a chess engine running in a super computer.Leave a comment:
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In the final position Black has a move 28...a2 and no time to grab f7.Originally posted by Mario Moran-Venegas View PostLeave a comment:
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Yes there is a win Qb8+,,Qa7 then capture f7 then sac the queen for the a pawn. At no point can the king hide behind a-pawn.Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
Looking around seems that the variation was copied from one book to other. The position is in the Fine's Basic Chess Endgames No 135 with mentioning J. Faucher at the end of the variation.
Digging deeper found that the problem published in the British Chess magazine 1907 September issue. Google digitized it long time ago. A whole page is dedicated to the problem.
Move 17. h4 mentioned as a drawing one in this position
A better one 17. Ke2
While the author writes as a winning variation, Stockfish want to agree with that +147 at 41 depth. Though it takes a human input to go through moves and get =.
17...Kb2 18. Kd2 Ka3 19. Kc2 Ka2 20. h3
Here as the article is correct 20...a3 looses. (#10)
But 20...Ka3/a1 holds 21. h4 Ka2 22. f5 The article comments: "White will obtsin a Queen, and be able to stop the Black B P". Unfortunately, I could not find that stop.
22...gf (here Stockfish changed the mind. 22....ef5 was loosing indeed) 23. h5 f4 (and only King can hold this black pawn) 24. h6 f3 25. Kd2 but now other pawn will start marching 25... a3 26. h7 f2 27. Ke2 Kb2 28. h8Q
No win here again.
The article starts about dr. Hermann Neustadtl, and there is a sentence:
"His love of the game is evidenced by the fact that he has a library of upwards of 400 volumes on chess, inclusive of many rare work."
Would be interesting to find the source of Faucher's analyzes.Leave a comment:
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These old classic studies really are incredible. I spent about six hours tonight working on pawn endgames, and for so many of the examples, I immediately assumed that one side was just lost.Originally posted by George Best View Post
Then, as I worked through it, often with help from authors, I was absolutely shocked at how much can happen even just with pawns left. After decades of playing, still blown away by this game.Leave a comment:
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Yes, I would like to see what Faucher came up with. In Basic chess Endings by Fine (analysis by Faucher) it is clear that Black's Ke3 is the losing move but in that analysis, Black's Kd3 is not examined. What triggered me to become fascinated by this ending is that chess engines play Kd3 and never Ke3. The engines do not agree with Faucher.Leave a comment:
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Looking around seems that the variation was copied from one book to other. The position is in the Fine's Basic Chess Endgames No 135 with mentioning J. Faucher at the end of the variation.Originally posted by George Best View Post
Digging deeper found that the problem published in the British Chess magazine 1907 September issue. Google digitized it long time ago. A whole page is dedicated to the problem.
Move 17. h4 mentioned as a drawing one in this position
A better one 17. Ke2
While the author writes as a winning variation, Stockfish want to agree with that +147 at 41 depth. Though it takes a human input to go through moves and get =.
17...Kb2 18. Kd2 Ka3 19. Kc2 Ka2 20. h3
Here as the article is correct 20...a3 looses. (#10)
But 20...Ka3/a1 holds 21. h4 Ka2 22. f5 The article comments: "White will obtsin a Queen, and be able to stop the Black B P". Unfortunately, I could not find that stop.
22...gf (here Stockfish changed the mind. 22....ef5 was loosing indeed) 23. h5 f4 (and only King can hold this black pawn) 24. h6 f3 25. Kd2 but now other pawn will start marching 25... a3 26. h7 f2 27. Ke2 Kb2 28. h8Q
No win here again.
The article starts about dr. Hermann Neustadtl, and there is a sentence:
"His love of the game is evidenced by the fact that he has a library of upwards of 400 volumes on chess, inclusive of many rare work."
Would be interesting to find the source of Faucher's analyzes.Leave a comment:
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I know that this is a winning :)
E.Z. 2020 (correcting Neustadtl-Porges 1907 ) LOL
Leave a comment:
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Lazlo Polgar's Chess Endgames (1999) also says is white win. diagram 2161Leave a comment:
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to convince anybody you would have to give more of a variation than that. As far as I can see, f5 at any point by white does no better than draw as per the variations given previously.Originally posted by Mario Moran-Venegas View PostLeave a comment:
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