Endgame Studies
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yes it is a draw!Last edited by Mario Moran-Venegas; Tuesday, 27th October, 2020, 07:51 PM.
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To summarize all of the foregoing, it seems that if Black responds to White's king side pawn advance he loses but if Black ignores White's king side advances and focuses on advancing his c pawn that he can draw.
I guess Maizelis did not contemplate allowing the h pawn to be queened but I am very uncomfortable second guessing his analysis.
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Originally posted by Wayne Komer View PostEndgame Studies
October 25, 2020
Actually George, when referencing a study, it would be good to give the year and the author rather than just the book and page.
I have three different editions of Maizelis and was forced to go down into the catacombs to find the book you cited. It is dusty there with lots of spider webs, and dangerous, because you could get a nasty shock if you have forgotten what shelves you booby-trapped.
Anyway, beyond the Olms books section, I found Batsfords and therein this:
Original study, as above:
Neustadtl 1907
White to move and win
After these moves:
1.Kf3 Kc6 2.Ke2 Kc5 3.Kf2 Kc6 4.Kf3 Kd5 5.Ke3 Kc5 6.Ke4 h4 7.Kf3 Kd5 8.Ke3 Kc5 9.Ke4 Kb5 10.Kd4 h3 11.Ke3 Kc5 12.Kf2 Kd5 13.Kf3 Kc5 14.Kg3 Kd5 15.Kxh3 Ke4 16.Kg4 *
Position after 16.Kg4
And here Averbakh/Maizelis write:
And 16…f5+ wins (for White)
The alternative lines discussed are: 16…Ke3, or Kd5 or Kd3
I'll confess however, that even with an engine running, I can't find a win in this position. The problem is that my computer (Stockfish) will happily pump out large evaluations (+4) in positions where white has queened but black has a supported pawn on c2 but there is no win.
e.g. 6....Kd3 7 f5 Kc2 8 fg fg 9 h4 Kxb2 10 h5 gh+ 11 Kxh5 Kxc3 12 g6 Kb2 13 g7 c3 14 g8=Q c2
and not withstanding an evaluation by Stockfish of +3.4, this appears to be a draw to me.
oops, looks like Egidius posted something similar first....Last edited by Roger Patterson; Tuesday, 27th October, 2020, 03:36 PM. Reason: reference Egidijus post.
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Does this mean that the Neustadtl-Porges 1907 endgame position published in various books and said to be a win for White, is a draw after all? Dare I think that? Can we report this to Chess Headquarters, wherever that is? LOL
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Originally posted by George Best View PostBlack plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?
I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.
Russian book follows with 4... gh5 response. Then 5. f5 (maybe this a late mentioning of that f5+ wins :) ) 5....ef5 6. g6 fg6 7. e6 Ka3 8. e7 Kb2 9. e8Q a3 24 Qb5+ (here the variation stops.)
Now in your variation, seems you were right, the final position is probably equal
4....Kc3 5. h6 Kb2 6. h7 c3 7. h8Q c2 (here without seeing a board I thought that the Queen forces King to enter the corner, and taking a pawn on c2 in a semi-stalemate situation the Black f7 pawn will be moved. However the Black a4 and White a3 pawns do not allow all that).
8. Qb8+ Ka2 (do not take a a3 pawn) 9. Qc7 Kb2 10. Qb7+ (a small trap) Ka1 (9...Ka2 would loose Qf7 and Qe6+) 10. Qc6 Kb2 11. Qb5 Ka1 12. Qc4 Kb2 (seem only move to hold. 12...Kb1 13. Qa4 c1Q 14. Qb3 wins as in some variations White King finds an escape on an a3 square.
)
After 12... Kb2
White could go into the Queens' endgame but Black seems have a perpetual. (no escape square on an a3)
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I misspoke. I should have said I am unable to find a winning combination for White as I am not a club player nor an expert, just a casual player. I was hoping that an expert or master could show me how to proceed. I too can not believe that I found a draw if the books say it is a win but I can not find the win.Last edited by George Best; Monday, 26th October, 2020, 11:15 PM.
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Originally posted by George Best View PostBlack plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?
I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.
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Black plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?
I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.
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Originally posted by George Best View PostI am at a loss to know when Maizelis intended to advance the pawn. If white wins by the continuations given in the text a, b and c then why does he mention "and P-B5 (f5) wins"? It seems that White wins without the advance.
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Thanks Wayne. You are right that Black's f5 check loses for sure but I don't think that is what Maizelis was referring to.
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Endgame Studies
October 25, 2020
My analytical engine gives:
(1...f5+ ( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.gxf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.f8=Q Kc1 5.Kf3 Kxb2 6.Ke3 Kc2 7.Qd6 g5 8.Qd2+ Kb1 9.fxg5 Ka1 10.g6 Kb1 11.g7 Ka1 12.g8=Q Kb1 13.Qg1#)
( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.exf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.Kf3 Kxb2 5.f8=Q Kc2 6.Ke2 Kxc3 7.Ke3 Kb2 8.Kd2 c3+ 9.Kd3 Kc1 10.Qb4 c2 11.Ke3 e5 12.fxe5 Kd1 13.Qd2# )
( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.exf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.Kf3 Kxb2 5.f8=Q Kc2 6.Ke2 Kxc3 7.Ke3 Kb2 8.Kd2 c3+ 9.Kd3 Kc1 10.Qb4 c2 11.Ke3 e5 12.fxe5 Kd1 13.Qd2# )
If White replies either 2.Kh4 or 2.Kh3 then Black wins.
Have to go, the Buffalo Bills and the Jets are slugging it out.
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Hi Wayne, I am new at posting and will provide diagrams in future. Thank you. I too thought that the text indicated as you say that White wins after pushing the bishop pawn but I found that engines don't like pushing the pawn. I would love to see the continuation that Maizelis was contemplating. I have yet to find the win if White does push.
The continuations given in the book are for the three possible black king moves and white does not push the pawn and yet white wins and so I am at a loss to know when Maizelis intended to advance the pawn. If white wins by the continuations given in the text a, b and c then why does he mention "and P-B5 (f5) wins"? It seems that White wins without the advance.Last edited by George Best; Sunday, 25th October, 2020, 02:21 PM.
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Endgame Studies
October 25, 2020
Actually George, when referencing a study, it would be good to give the year and the author rather than just the book and page.
I have three different editions of Maizelis and was forced to go down into the catacombs to find the book you cited. It is dusty there with lots of spider webs, and dangerous, because you could get a nasty shock if you have forgotten what shelves you booby-trapped.
Anyway, beyond the Olms books section, I found Batsfords and therein this:
Original study, as above:
Neustadtl 1907
White to move and win
After these moves:
1.Kf3 Kc6 2.Ke2 Kc5 3.Kf2 Kc6 4.Kf3 Kd5 5.Ke3 Kc5 6.Ke4 h4 7.Kf3 Kd5 8.Ke3 Kc5 9.Ke4 Kb5 10.Kd4 h3 11.Ke3 Kc5 12.Kf2 Kd5 13.Kf3 Kc5 14.Kg3 Kd5 15.Kxh3 Ke4 16.Kg4 *
Position after 16.Kg4
And here Averbakh/Maizelis write:
And 16…f5+ wins (for White)
The alternative lines discussed are: 16…Ke3, or Kd5 or Kd3
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