-
yes it is a draw!Last edited by Mario Moran-Venegas; Tuesday, 27th October, 2020, 07:51 PM. -
To summarize all of the foregoing, it seems that if Black responds to White's king side pawn advance he loses but if Black ignores White's king side advances and focuses on advancing his c pawn that he can draw.
I guess Maizelis did not contemplate allowing the h pawn to be queened but I am very uncomfortable second guessing his analysis.Leave a comment:
-
possibly the text was meant to read 6.....Kd3 7 f5 (by white).Originally posted by Wayne Komer View PostEndgame Studies
October 25, 2020
Actually George, when referencing a study, it would be good to give the year and the author rather than just the book and page.
I have three different editions of Maizelis and was forced to go down into the catacombs to find the book you cited. It is dusty there with lots of spider webs, and dangerous, because you could get a nasty shock if you have forgotten what shelves you booby-trapped.
Anyway, beyond the Olms books section, I found Batsfords and therein this:
Original study, as above:
Neustadtl 1907
White to move and win
After these moves:
1.Kf3 Kc6 2.Ke2 Kc5 3.Kf2 Kc6 4.Kf3 Kd5 5.Ke3 Kc5 6.Ke4 h4 7.Kf3 Kd5 8.Ke3 Kc5 9.Ke4 Kb5 10.Kd4 h3 11.Ke3 Kc5 12.Kf2 Kd5 13.Kf3 Kc5 14.Kg3 Kd5 15.Kxh3 Ke4 16.Kg4 *
Position after 16.Kg4
And here Averbakh/Maizelis write:
And 16…f5+ wins (for White)
The alternative lines discussed are: 16…Ke3, or Kd5 or Kd3
I'll confess however, that even with an engine running, I can't find a win in this position. The problem is that my computer (Stockfish) will happily pump out large evaluations (+4) in positions where white has queened but black has a supported pawn on c2 but there is no win.
e.g. 6....Kd3 7 f5 Kc2 8 fg fg 9 h4 Kxb2 10 h5 gh+ 11 Kxh5 Kxc3 12 g6 Kb2 13 g7 c3 14 g8=Q c2
and not withstanding an evaluation by Stockfish of +3.4, this appears to be a draw to me.
oops, looks like Egidius posted something similar first....Last edited by Roger Patterson; Tuesday, 27th October, 2020, 03:36 PM. Reason: reference Egidijus post.Leave a comment:
-
Does this mean that the Neustadtl-Porges 1907 endgame position published in various books and said to be a win for White, is a draw after all? Dare I think that? Can we report this to Chess Headquarters, wherever that is? LOLLeave a comment:
-
After 4. h5Originally posted by George Best View Post
Russian book follows with 4... gh5 response. Then 5. f5 (maybe this a late mentioning of that f5+ wins :) ) 5....ef5 6. g6 fg6 7. e6 Ka3 8. e7 Kb2 9. e8Q a3 24 Qb5+ (here the variation stops.)
Now in your variation, seems you were right, the final position is probably equal
4....Kc3 5. h6 Kb2 6. h7 c3 7. h8Q c2 (here without seeing a board I thought that the Queen forces King to enter the corner, and taking a pawn on c2 in a semi-stalemate situation the Black f7 pawn will be moved. However the Black a4 and White a3 pawns do not allow all that).
8. Qb8+ Ka2 (do not take a a3 pawn) 9. Qc7 Kb2 10. Qb7+ (a small trap) Ka1 (9...Ka2 would loose Qf7 and Qe6+) 10. Qc6 Kb2 11. Qb5 Ka1 12. Qc4 Kb2 (seem only move to hold. 12...Kb1 13. Qa4 c1Q 14. Qb3 wins as in some variations White King finds an escape on an a3 square.
)
After 12... Kb2
White could go into the Queens' endgame but Black seems have a perpetual. (no escape square on an a3)
Leave a comment:
-
I misspoke. I should have said I am unable to find a winning combination for White as I am not a club player nor an expert, just a casual player. I was hoping that an expert or master could show me how to proceed. I too can not believe that I found a draw if the books say it is a win but I can not find the win.Last edited by George Best; Monday, 26th October, 2020, 11:15 PM.Leave a comment:
-
Why do you think it is a draw position. It is not a simple Q vs c-pawn. Black f7 and other pawns spoil it.Originally posted by George Best View PostLeave a comment:
-
Black plays Kd3 then 2 Kf3 Kc2 3 h4 Kxb2 4 h5 Kxc3 5 h6 Kb2 6 h7 c3 7 h8(Q) c2 arriving at a drawn position?
I would like to know if or where I am going wrong and thought that fresh eyes could find a flaw in the above line.Leave a comment:
-
To me it looks a translator/editor error. Russian editions did no mention f5 at all after Kg4.Originally posted by George Best View PostLeave a comment:
-
Thanks Wayne. You are right that Black's f5 check loses for sure but I don't think that is what Maizelis was referring to.Leave a comment:
-
Endgame Studies
October 25, 2020
My analytical engine gives:
(1...f5+ ( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.gxf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.f8=Q Kc1 5.Kf3 Kxb2 6.Ke3 Kc2 7.Qd6 g5 8.Qd2+ Kb1 9.fxg5 Ka1 10.g6 Kb1 11.g7 Ka1 12.g8=Q Kb1 13.Qg1#)
( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.exf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.Kf3 Kxb2 5.f8=Q Kc2 6.Ke2 Kxc3 7.Ke3 Kb2 8.Kd2 c3+ 9.Kd3 Kc1 10.Qb4 c2 11.Ke3 e5 12.fxe5 Kd1 13.Qd2# )
( 1...f5+ { #12/26 } 2.exf6 Kd3 3.f7 Kc2 4.Kf3 Kxb2 5.f8=Q Kc2 6.Ke2 Kxc3 7.Ke3 Kb2 8.Kd2 c3+ 9.Kd3 Kc1 10.Qb4 c2 11.Ke3 e5 12.fxe5 Kd1 13.Qd2# )
If White replies either 2.Kh4 or 2.Kh3 then Black wins.
Have to go, the Buffalo Bills and the Jets are slugging it out.
Leave a comment:
-
Hi Wayne, I am new at posting and will provide diagrams in future. Thank you. I too thought that the text indicated as you say that White wins after pushing the bishop pawn but I found that engines don't like pushing the pawn. I would love to see the continuation that Maizelis was contemplating. I have yet to find the win if White does push.
The continuations given in the book are for the three possible black king moves and white does not push the pawn and yet white wins and so I am at a loss to know when Maizelis intended to advance the pawn. If white wins by the continuations given in the text a, b and c then why does he mention "and P-B5 (f5) wins"? It seems that White wins without the advance.Last edited by George Best; Sunday, 25th October, 2020, 02:21 PM.Leave a comment:
-
Endgame Studies
October 25, 2020
Actually George, when referencing a study, it would be good to give the year and the author rather than just the book and page.
I have three different editions of Maizelis and was forced to go down into the catacombs to find the book you cited. It is dusty there with lots of spider webs, and dangerous, because you could get a nasty shock if you have forgotten what shelves you booby-trapped.
Anyway, beyond the Olms books section, I found Batsfords and therein this:
Original study, as above:
Neustadtl 1907
White to move and win
After these moves:
1.Kf3 Kc6 2.Ke2 Kc5 3.Kf2 Kc6 4.Kf3 Kd5 5.Ke3 Kc5 6.Ke4 h4 7.Kf3 Kd5 8.Ke3 Kc5 9.Ke4 Kb5 10.Kd4 h3 11.Ke3 Kc5 12.Kf2 Kd5 13.Kf3 Kc5 14.Kg3 Kd5 15.Kxh3 Ke4 16.Kg4 *
Position after 16.Kg4
And here Averbakh/Maizelis write:
And 16…f5+ wins (for White)
The alternative lines discussed are: 16…Ke3, or Kd5 or Kd3
Leave a comment:
- If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
- Policy / Politique
The fee for tournament organizers advertising on ChessTalk is $20/event or $100/yearly unlimited for the year.
Les frais d'inscription des organisateurs de tournoi sur ChessTalk sont de 20 $/événement ou de 100 $/année illimitée.
You can etransfer to Henry Lam at chesstalkforum at gmail dot com
Transfér à Henry Lam à chesstalkforum@gmail.com
Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir - General Guidelines
---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
Some Basics
1. Under Board "Frequently Asked Questions" (FAQs) there are 3 sections dealing with General Forum Usage, User Profile Features, and Reading and Posting Messages. These deal with everything from Avatars to Your Notifications. Most general technical questions are covered there. Here is a link to the FAQs. https://forum.chesstalk.com/help
2. Consider using the SEARCH button if you are looking for information. You may find your question has already been answered in a previous thread.
3. If you've looked for an answer to a question, and not found one, then you should consider asking your question in a new thread. For example, there have already been questions and discussion regarding: how to do chess diagrams (FENs); crosstables that line up properly; and the numerous little “glitches” that every new site will have.
4. Read pinned or sticky threads, like this one, if they look important. This applies especially to newcomers.
5. Read the thread you're posting in before you post. There are a variety of ways to look at a thread. These are covered under “Display Modes”.
6. Thread titles: please provide some details in your thread title. This is useful for a number of reasons. It helps ChessTalk members to quickly skim the threads. It prevents duplication of threads. And so on.
7. Unnecessary thread proliferation (e.g., deliberately creating a new thread that duplicates existing discussion) is discouraged. Look to see if a thread on your topic may have already been started and, if so, consider adding your contribution to the pre-existing thread. However, starting new threads to explore side-issues that are not relevant to the original subject is strongly encouraged. A single thread on the Canadian Open, with hundreds of posts on multiple sub-topics, is no better than a dozen threads on the Open covering only a few topics. Use your good judgment when starting a new thread.
8. If and/or when sub-forums are created, please make sure to create threads in the proper place.
Debate
9. Give an opinion and back it up with a reason. Throwaway comments such as "Game X pwnz because my friend and I think so!" could be considered pointless at best, and inflammatory at worst.
10. Try to give your own opinions, not simply those copied and pasted from reviews or opinions of your friends.
Unacceptable behavior and warnings
11. In registering here at ChessTalk please note that the same or similar rules apply here as applied at the previous Boardhost message board. In particular, the following content is not permitted to appear in any messages:
* Racism
* Hatred
* Harassment
* Adult content
* Obscene material
* Nudity or pornography
* Material that infringes intellectual property or other proprietary rights of any party
* Material the posting of which is tortious or violates a contractual or fiduciary obligation you or we owe to another party
* Piracy, hacking, viruses, worms, or warez
* Spam
* Any illegal content
* unapproved Commercial banner advertisements or revenue-generating links
* Any link to or any images from a site containing any material outlined in these restrictions
* Any material deemed offensive or inappropriate by the Board staff
12. Users are welcome to challenge other points of view and opinions, but should do so respectfully. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Posts and threads with unacceptable content can be closed or deleted altogether. Furthermore, a range of sanctions are possible - from a simple warning to a temporary or even a permanent banning from ChessTalk.
Helping to Moderate
13. 'Report' links (an exclamation mark inside a triangle) can be found in many places throughout the board. These links allow users to alert the board staff to anything which is offensive, objectionable or illegal. Please consider using this feature if the need arises.
Advice for free
14. You should exercise the same caution with Private Messages as you would with any public posting.
15. Have fun!
(Thanks to Nigel Hanrahan for writing these up!)
Leave a comment: