Niemann - Carlsen

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  • Kerry Liles
    replied
    Originally posted by Aris Marghetis View Post

    If I may suggest, this article, and all the sublinks, are critical reading towards understanding the situation.

    I hope people can do that. It's more work than blaming the kid for his past, but it's the right thing to do.

    I despise cheaters as much as anyone, but in this case, Niemann seems innocent, now even bullied.
    Unfortunately, despite such articles (written by people with more than enough experience) most chess players will have formed an opinion right out of the gate and then stick to it.
    (Sound familiar...? lol)
    I have heard people simply say "Carlsen is world champion so Niemann must have cheated". Unreal leap of logic there.
    I have been following Ken Regan's work for years and believe he is both impartial and very knowledgeable about cheating analysis.
    People have their own bias and that likely will steer them toward one player or the other.

    As current World Champion (I guess he is), Carlsen should explain himself in my opinion.
    If he is not willing to do so, FIDE should consider sanctioning him just like any other player who exhibits such terrible behaviour.

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  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    It is sad that all the talk is about Carlsen's conduct and not about the wonderful series of performances in Saint Louis by Firouzja.

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  • Peter McKillop
    replied
    Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post
    Everyone can keep demanding that Carlsen explain himself or make outright claims. Legally you cannot do this without proof or open yourself to liability. That doesn't preclude him from personally being 100% convinced that there's a reason he doesn't want to play this player and believing the chess world should not have Niemann in it.

    Soon organizers will realize they have a choice:

    Invite both, and have the integrity of the event irrevocably tainted by a 2 move resignation
    Invite Niemann but not Carlsen
    Invite Carlsen but not Niemann

    I have a feeling I know what the choice will be, so Carlsen will get his way and achieve what he believes is the moral right.
    Looks very logical. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

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  • Aris Marghetis
    replied
    Originally posted by Hans Jung View Post
    https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-han...regan-analyzes Ken Regan declares Hans Niemann is not cheating.
    If I may suggest, this article, and all the sublinks, are critical reading towards understanding the situation.

    I hope people can do that. It's more challenging than reflexively joining blaming, but this is quite important.

    I despise cheaters as much as anyone, but I do believe in the usual value of "innocent until proven guilty".
    Last edited by Aris Marghetis; Wednesday, 21st September, 2022, 09:42 PM.

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  • David Ottosen
    replied
    Everyone can keep demanding that Carlsen explain himself or make outright claims. Legally you cannot do this without proof or open yourself to liability. That doesn't preclude him from personally being 100% convinced that there's a reason he doesn't want to play this player and believing the chess world should not have Niemann in it.

    Soon organizers will realize they have a choice:

    Invite both, and have the integrity of the event irrevocably tainted by a 2 move resignation
    Invite Niemann but not Carlsen
    Invite Carlsen but not Niemann

    I have a feeling I know what the choice will be, so Carlsen will get his way and achieve what he believes is the moral right.
    Last edited by David Ottosen; Tuesday, 20th September, 2022, 11:08 AM.

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  • Peter McKillop
    replied
    Originally posted by Brad Thomson View Post

    Fair enough, but my concern is precisely that. He knows that Niemann is being tossed under the bus, and he precipitated it, and he allowed/allows it to continue. This is in my view reprehensible, whether or not we have his side of the story.
    At this point I do agree with you on one thing: the longer this carries on with no explanation from Carlsen, the worse he looks. Carrying on from your line of thought, could it be that Carlsen WANTS to throw Niemann under the bus but, since he isn't king and doesn't control all the strings, he needs to manoeuvre others into helping him? There is an old adage that is applied to marriages - once a cheater, always a cheater. Maybe Magnus is thinking the same thing about Niemann and chess. Seriously, who needs a self-proclaimed cheater in the chess world? In one recent article Niemann said something like, "But I'm clean now." Who cares? Once a cheater, always a cheater! There aren't enough talented but struggling young players in the world? Do we really have to give up precious spots in elite events to people like Niemann? Food for thought.

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  • Hans Jung
    replied
    https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-han...regan-analyzes Ken Regan declares Hans Niemann is not cheating.

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  • Pargat Perrer
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

    Now, now. I'm not claiming to have my own facts. I simply made the point (factual) that we don't have Carlsen's side of the story yet.
    Would you believe that Carlsen's home supercomputer has determined that 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 is losing for Black in all variations?

    Your answer: "I find that rather hard to believe."

    Would you believe .... his iPhone told him his biorhythm chart was entirely negative for that day?

    Your answer: "Not really."

    How about .... his abacus broke and all the beads fell off?

    Ok seriously, this would be a GREAT time for Magnus to announce to the world that he's migrating to Hostage Chess, the invention of Canada's John Leslie, and will finance a new world federation for Hostage Chess. Wow, what an earthquake in the chess world that would be!

    Right now, the World Hostage Chess Champion is Canada's Shawn Rodrique-Lemieux. Maybe Magnus will challenge him?


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  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    Originally posted by Kerry Liles View Post

    How has it become OK to deliberately throw a game? Carlsen should be disqualified from the tournament. Oh wait, he has some financial interest with the organizers? Come on, this is garbage.

    All I have seen is Niemann admitted to (and apologized) for some online cheating when he was younger (he is still only 20 no?)
    I think that if this is what is bothering Carlsen then Carlsen needs to get a grip. IF Carlsen has evidence of something else, put up or shut up.
    Well said, I agree completely.

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  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

    Now, now. I'm not claiming to have my own facts. I simply made the point (factual) that we don't have Carlsen's side of the story yet.
    Fair enough, but my concern is precisely that. He knows that Niemann is being tossed under the bus, and he precipitated it, and he allowed/allows it to continue. This is in my view reprehensible, whether or not we have his side of the story.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter McKillop
    replied
    Originally posted by Brad Thomson View Post

    The FACT is that Carlsen has now withdrawn from an event, while intimating that Niemann cheated to beat him, and then resigned against the same person on move two. These FACTS alone are in my view a demonstration of improper conduct. You may disagree with me about my assessment of Magnus, but you are not entitled to your own FACTS.
    Now, now. I'm not claiming to have my own facts. I simply made the point (factual) that we don't have Carlsen's side of the story yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kerry Liles
    replied
    Originally posted by John Coleman View Post
    Carlsen resigned after 1 move against Niemann in the Julius Bauer Generation Cup. Either MC is out to ruin Niemann's repution... or his own reputation.
    How has it become OK to deliberately throw a game? Carlsen should be disqualified from the tournament. Oh wait, he has some financial interest with the organizers? Come on, this is garbage.

    All I have seen is Niemann admitted to (and apologized) for some online cheating when he was younger (he is still only 20 no?)
    I think that if this is what is bothering Carlsen then Carlsen needs to get a grip. IF Carlsen has evidence of something else, put up or shut up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post
    LOL! You need facts to have a case. We still don't have Carlsen's side of the story.
    The FACT is that Carlsen has now withdrawn from an event, while intimating that Niemann cheated to beat him, and then resigned against the same person on move two. These FACTS alone are in my view a demonstration of improper conduct. You may disagree with me about my assessment of Magnus, but you are not entitled to your own FACTS.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    I have another explanation- maybe Rod Serling has become God.

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  • Joshua Guo
    replied
    I think the possibility of both Carlsen and Hans in on this, for the purpose of creating drama/viewership is not as crazy as it sounds. Carlsen also has vested interest with all his chess entities.

    These days it's all about creating contents (regardless if it's fake/staged/etc.), ask any youtuber/streamer.

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