Score-based Prizes tournament

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Slightly lower prizes would be a safer $7360 PF:

C
1x1400=1400
2x600=1200
9x300=2700
11x100=1100
19x40=760

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

So, player X wins 1500/32 So, player X wins 1500/243 + 5*700/243 + 15*350/243 + 30*150/243 + 45*40/243 = 16550/243 = 68 $.

In this model organizers make 31 $ per player.

Using this equation with PF B = 79 $

The organizer receives for expenses 20 $ per player

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

This is a new idea for me, so I tried to calculate the numbers. Obviously, the most important factor is the probability of a draw in the game. Organizers want more draws to reduce the prizes.

1. Model A. No draws at all. For one player X we have:

5 points - chances 1/32 - win 1500.

4 points - chances 5/32 - win 350.

3 points - chances 10/32 - win 40.

So, player X wins 1500/32 + 350*5/32 + 40*10/32 = 3650/32 = 114.

In this model organizers lose 15 dollars per player (entry fee is 99).

2. Model B. 1/3 for a win, 1/3 for a draw, 1/3 for a loss.

5 points - chances 1/243 - win 1500

4.5 points - chances 5/243 - win 700.

4 points - chances 15/243 - win 350.

3.5 points - chances 30/243 - win 150.

3 points - chances 45/243 - win 40.

So, player X wins 1500/243 + 5*700/243 + 15*350/243 + 30*150/243 + 45*40/243 = 16550/243 = 68 $.

In this model organizers make 31 $ per player.

I think Victor misunderstood. 5-0=5; 4.5-.5=4; 4-1=3; 3.5-1.5=2; and 3-2=1.

Assuming 100 players at $100 EF:

A
1x1500=1500
2x700=1400
9x350=3150
11x150=1650
19x40=760
Total PF $8360

B
1x1200=1200
2x600=1200
9x300=2700
11x200=2200
19x100=1900
Total PF $9200

Both PF are too high in this case if goal is PF to equal 70% of EF and risks going over 100% if two players score 5-0.

If no player gets 5, then there are 2 new 4.5s and A PF is $7960, B PF is $8900.

[Victor Plotkin]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

This is a new idea for me, so I tried to calculate the numbers. Obviously, the most important factor is the probability of a draw in the game. Organizers want more draws to reduce the prizes.

1. Model A. No draws at all. For one player X we have:

5 points - chances 1/32 - win 1500.

4 points - chances 5/32 - win 350.

3 points - chances 10/32 - win 40.

So, player X wins 1500/32 + 350*5/32 + 40*10/32 = 3650/32 = 114.

In this model organizers lose 15 dollars per player (entry fee is 99).

2. Model B. 1/3 for a win, 1/3 for a draw, 1/3 for a loss.

5 points - chances 1/243 - win 1500

4.5 points - chances 5/243 - win 700.

4 points - chances 15/243 - win 350.

3.5 points - chances 30/243 - win 150.

3 points - chances 45/243 - win 40.

So, player X wins 1500/243 + 5*700/243 + 15*350/243 + 30*150/243 + 45*40/243 = 16550/243 = 68 $.

In this model organizers make 31 $ per player.

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Looking at this again it violates an old rule for prize funds: the lowest prize should equal getting the entry fee back.

So a model (depending on number of entries, prize fund can be finalize by the end of round 3):

5 $1200
4 $600
3 $300
2 $200
1 $100

1. That would have meant the prize $$$ is based on number of entries ( which obviously we would not want that to be )

2. The $40 is treated as consolation rather than getting nothing. The 3 points in higher section is not easy to get and thus a consolation prize even though it is lower than entry fee. If it is based on placing, how often it happens that when the prize money is shared, sometimes you only gets $ 15 - 30 which is obviously also lower than your entry fees ? For lower section, 3 points may not earn you anything. It is not the same prize money for every section as the it is much harder to get the same number of points compared to lower section.

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Hi Everyone, lets give an example as below :

Weekend tournament over 5 rounds

1. Entry fee - $ 99

2. Winnings

2.1 5 points ( perfect score ) - $ 1,500
2.2 4.5 points - $ 700
2.3 4 points - $ 350
2.4 3.5 points - $ 150
2.5 3 points - $40

Each sections winnings may be tweak a bit ( generally higher section will have a slightly better prize money ratio than the lower section ).

Looking at this again it violates an old rule for prize funds: the lowest prize should equal getting the entry fee back.

So a model (depending on number of entries, prize fund can be finalize by the end of round 3):

5 $1200
4 $600
3 $300
2 $200
1 $100

[John Brown]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Gary Just post the flyer when you have it.

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

I personally prefer to know the prizes for the score based.

Details coming out very soon.

Meantime - the dates are Feb 2-4, 2018. You can either play 2 days or 3 days tournament. Players from the two groups will merge together in round 3. You can re-enter as well if you play badly in round 1 of the 3 days but you have to pay the re-entry fees.

The prizes should be pretty attractive and a couple of sections as well.

Mark the dates. It will be held in Oakville and called Oakville Open. First regular rated Chess tournament in Oakville. We do hope Chess players/parents will support our first tournament. If things go smoothly, we will have our second one in Toronto in mid 2018. Our tournament director is an IA and tournament will start promptly.

We believe in giving the best to the chess community.

Stay tuned for more updates

Gary Hua

[Caesar Posylek]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

I personally prefer to know the prizes for the score based.

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

After another month of planning, I think we are close to announce this tournament. No announcement yet and details will come later hopefully end of this week or next week.

This will be the first time that we will have a score based prize tournament in Canada ( not dependent on your placing )

Mark this date - Feb 2-4, 2018 with the options to play in a 2 days or 3 days. You can play in either 2 or 3 days and also the option to re-enter again if you did badly in round 1 under the 3 days option. The two groups of players will merge together in round 3. It will be a 5 rounds Swiss tournament.

Stay tuned for more updates.

Gary Hua

[Gary Hua]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

I am personally hopeful that this may work out. The figures may be tweak here and there but the main objective is there. I have played in this kind of tournament in US and they are really well organized and value for money. I just want to duplicate their system into Canada. Good things should always be followed isn't it ?

We may start the first tournament at the end of the year ( before Hart House ) if everything goes as planned otherwise we will start in 2018. We hope chess players will support our tournament without which our tournament will fail badly.

Detail planning is in progress now. More updates on this tournament will be made known in the near future. We are also looking at suitable venues right now to accommodate 100-200 players ( in mind )

Looks like most players are looking at the prizes before they make their decision ( which is perfectly fine ). I will be quite disappointed if any players just say no to our tournaments without even looking at the benefits that the tournament provides.

I have organized a couple of tournaments in Mississauga and always believe in providing the best for the players / parents. Improvement in organizing and exceeding players' expectation has always been my objective in organizing tournaments. Without well organized tournaments, the attendants will naturally drop and the tournament will fail. Ultimately, customers satisfaction is of utmost important.

Gary Hua

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Where monies would go if nobody wins with the perfect or other prize score?

If a player doesn't win their last round game, and thus his opponent doesn't lose, they both score 5.5 - .5 rather than 6-0 and 5-1, so it looks the same.
But doing a model it seems that the unlikely perfect score takes money out of the prize pool. The win minus loss model is not a closed system as the 50% group has wins without prizes. There is left over money.

Looking at the Maryland FAQ website they calculate higher amounts for the top section to take into account the higher number of draws.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

I'm not sure how you calculated the prize payouts, but this seems rather risky for the organizer. I suggest running some sort of Monte Carlo simulation (if you haven't done so already) and see what the average and the spread of potential payouts would be then pay something like 80% of the average, even after deducting other expenses, to build in a margin of safety.

I did some estimation for Summer Open but scaled Gary's prizes by some factor (smaller entry fee, organizational costs etc). If Gary or other would ask for a different scale factor, I can change easily.

U900					
		5			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	300			
4.5	700	140	1	400	400
4	350	70	4	250	100
3.5	150	30	2	150	-
3	40	8	8	-	-
					
	Total	548	544	800

U1600					
		5			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	300			
4.5	700	140	1	400	400
4	350	70	0	250	-
3.5	150	30	5	150	80
3	40	8	6	-	-
					
	Total	548	338	800

U2000					
		4			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	375			
4.5	700	175	0		
4	350	88	2	500	400
3.5	150	38	4	300	50
3	40	10	4	200	
					
	Total	685	365	1000

Open					
		3			
Points	Gary	Scaled	#	Prizes	Shared
5	1500	500			
4.5	700	233	0		
4	350	117	1	800	800
3.5	150	50	3	500	266.6666667
3	40	13	5	300	-
					
	Total	913	333	1600

Only a perfect-score player would get a similar amount as a "normal" winner (maybe a "clear winner" award would compensate that). Only the benefit for the smallest score players who get some change. Seems that the organizer in most cases are in a plus (second number in total is the total payout)

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Hi Everyone, lets give an example as below :

Weekend tournament over 5 rounds

1. Entry fee - $ 99

2. Winnings

2.1 5 points ( perfect score ) - $ 1,500
2.2 4.5 points - $ 700
2.3 4 points - $ 350
2.4 3.5 points - $ 150
2.5 3 points - $ 40

If you are at sole 4.5 points, you may win extra bonus of $ 200

The benefits of this tournament are as follows :

1. The prize money will not be shared. Currently, you may find your winnings shared by 6 players rendering your prize money to be very little left.
2. It is GUARANTEED and not depends on number of entries
3. Once you finish your game, potentially you can go home and not NOT have to wait for others to finish their games.
4. It encourages players to go for a in than a quick draw. Wins hurt organizer and draw makes an organizer smile.
5. Best part - If you know you can win 4 or 4.5 points or even 5 perfect points, your earnings could potentially be 4 to 15 times your entry fee.
6. You dont have to care what is the total prize fund at all as a player or how it is going to affect the organizer.

I hope I have answer most questions in this thread. Please let me know your thoughts after this explanations. Each sections winnings may be tweak a bit ( generally higher section will have a slightly better prize money ratio than the lower section ).

I'm not sure how you calculated the prize payouts, but this seems rather risky for the organizer. I suggest running some sort of Monte Carlo simulation (if you haven't done so already) and see what the average and the spread of potential payouts would be then pay something like 80% of the average, even after deducting other expenses, to build in a margin of safety.

[John Brown]

Re: Score-based Prizes tournament

Hi Gary;

how many players are you talking about taking part in this tournament? If only 10 players that is only $990. Where do you get the idea that organizers like to Guarantee to fork out money if there is a low turn out? Is this what the New York Open does?
Maybe you could organize the first tournament and see if your guaranteed prize fund draws the numbers so you can pay expenses and put some money in your pocket.
I don't think (unless you have a free site and the organizers are rich and can afford the loss) that this idea would work well at the lower end tournaments. Maybe at Canadian Open or a big event it may have some merit.