Do we have an elephant in the room?

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  • Ian Findlay
    replied
    Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post
    The ultimate blame lies with FIDE, who have every incentive to make it easier and easier to get titles to increase application fees. That said, if you're a player and you take one of those less traditional paths, don't be upset if people look at your "title" differently, and don't be upset if other players who have earned the title in those traditional ways look at you as part of the problem in the devaluation of their hard earned title.
    Good points David.

    I do not blame Mr. Yang if the loophole is present. Back in my day, there used to be swiss tournaments where the TD, would go out of the way to do pairings for norms. Or the famous 1 tournament GM norm by Ron Henley in a 26 man round robin in Indonesia to get his title? These loopholes have been closed by FIDE. Worse, there were cases of people buying their norms through bribery. I think this is rare or does not happen anymore.

    But also kudos to Rene for pointing this out. If there is enough public outcry, I am sure FIDE will try to close this loophole also.

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  • Andrei Botez
    replied
    http://<a href="https://www.urbandic.../span></u></a>[/QUOTE]

    Let the battle of the Urban Dictionary quotes begin!!!

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  • Peter McKillop
    replied

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  • Rene Preotu
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

    I am part of "other people" and it's my opinion that what you've done here is not appropriate. You "just presented the facts," did you? You're entirely blameless for any negative fallout from your actions? Do you view yourself as being a righteous servant of Caissa, entitled to bring to everyone's attention that Mr. Yang's accomplishment failed to meet your standards? When your day comes, as it does for all of us, to fall short of someone's standards, I hope that person will show you a little mercy and not seek to belittle you in public.

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  • David Ottosen
    replied
    The ultimate blame lies with FIDE, who have every incentive to make it easier and easier to get titles to increase application fees. That said, if you're a player and you take one of those less traditional paths, don't be upset if people look at your "title" differently, and don't be upset if other players who have earned the title in those traditional ways look at you as part of the problem in the devaluation of their hard earned title.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter McKillop
    replied
    Originally posted by Rene Preotu View Post

    I just presented the facts (with links from the FIDE website) so other people can judge themselves if my statement is correct. Let them decide if this is appropriate or not.
    I am part of "other people" and it's my opinion that what you've done here is not appropriate. You "just presented the facts," did you? You're entirely blameless for any negative fallout from your actions? Do you view yourself as being a righteous servant of Caissa, entitled to bring to everyone's attention that Mr. Yang's accomplishment failed to meet your standards? When your day comes, as it does for all of us, to fall short of someone's standards, I hope that person will show you a little mercy and not seek to belittle you in public.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rene Preotu
    replied
    Originally posted by Roger Patterson View Post

    ... it is not appropriate to personally criticize a player who meets the FIDE rules to qualify for a title.
    I just presented the facts (with links from the FIDE website) so other people can judge themselves if my statement is correct. Let them decide if this is appropriate or not.

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  • Rene Preotu
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post

    It is my opinion that Rene should NOT be using a public forum to slag Mr. Yang in this way.
    Let's just agree to disagree.

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  • Roger Patterson
    replied
    Originally posted by Victor Plotkin View Post

    Roger and Peter,

    I fully understand your point. However,....
    Actually, I don't think you do. Neither Peter or I are defending FIDE rules regarding titles. FIDE randomly gifts out instant titles, occasionally to very weak players, and even for 'regular' norms, the rules around flags and number of rounds are biased towards conditions found in Europe. Or the manipulation you describe in your post.

    However, that may be, however wrong the FIDE rules are, it is not appropriate to personally criticize a player who meets the FIDE rules to qualify for a title.

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  • Victor Plotkin
    replied
    I heard a lot about these RR tournaments. I can not prove anything, but have enough reasons to call these tournaments "a very suspicious title/rating factory". I use the relatively soft wording "very suspicious", which is probably doesn't fully reflect my feeling about these events.

    I believe that a player who regularly and exclusively plays in these tournaments can gain at least 150 points, likely even more. That means, every 2350 FIDE can be a GM and every 2250 can become a IM. Canada can get a lot of title players for the relatively short period of time. Do we want it? I hope, not.

    During last 6 months, I discussed this issue with some very strong Canadian players and with a CFC executive - our opinions are almost identical.

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  • Victor Plotkin
    replied
    Originally posted by Roger Patterson View Post

    A pretty good counter example and you are right that meeting the requirements is meeting the requirements.
    Roger and Peter,

    I fully understand your point. However, I can give you an opposite example.

    FIDE candidate tournament. 1 or 2 players qualified by rating. Player A (FIDE 2790) needs 10 rating points by the end of the month to surpass player B. Both players A and B are famous in a chess community.

    Player A can play in a regular tournament and try to gain 10 points.... not so easy. Instead, he can play a RR with 13 1600 players. According to FIDE rules, player gets at least 0.8 rating points for any win if rating gap is greater than 400. Player A doesn't want to take any risk and play against 2400 players. He needs to score 12/13 just to maintain his rating and 13/13 to gain 10 points, which is very difficult even for 2800 player.

    However, against 1600 player the mission is much easier. For sure, he will score 13/13 and will gain 10 rating points. He will get the desirable spot in the candidates.

    What chess community will say about this effort? From one side, player A did not violate any FIDE rules. But for any normal person it should be absolutely clear that it's completely unfair. How about player B who will miss the important tournament?

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  • Francis Rodriguez
    replied



    FIDE Canada Zonal:



    Francis Rodrigues, LLB - Regional Director
    Strategy Games & The Chess'n Math Association
    tel: 416-488-5506; 416-486-3395; 647-232-6014 (cell)
    701 Mt. Pleasant Road, Toronto, ON, M4S 2N4

    fax: 416-486-4637; website: www.chess-math.org

    Leave a comment:


  • Roger Patterson
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post



    .....If my memory is working properly, over the years at least one Canadian has been awarded the IM title by meeting FIDE's performance threshold for a zonal championship. Some people might be of the opinion that, in general, the Canadian zonal championship is not a particularly strong tournament compared to some other zonal championships around the world. So now shall we accuse any Canadian who obtained their IM title through our zonal of finding an easy path to their title? Shall we make that accusation in a public forum and then pull up their tournament records to see if their performance meets OUR expectations?.....
    A pretty good counter example and you are right that meeting the requirements is meeting the requirements.

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  • Andrei Botez
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Guo View Post

    [...] you have to be at least 2400 FIDE yourself. Until then, just be quiet.
    How about if you have 2215 FIDE (Mike I), 2251 FIDE ( Ali N) or 2055 FIDE (Henry Z)? Do you see my point?

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  • Joshua Guo
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrei Botez View Post

    Peter, do you think that chess community will look at Mr Yang's GM title the same way they look at Eric, Razvan or Aman's titles? Maybe you know, maybe you don't, but believe me when I say that he will not be shown same respect as the one I just mention and that will last for ever or until Mr. Yang will show way more GM level results than what it takes to get 3 GM norms.
    This post has become absolute garbage. Kaiqi might not beat Eric/Razvan/Aman in a 6 game match, but he’s certainly stronger than everyone who posts on ChessTalk.

    So here's the rule - if you're going to publicly disrespect a 2500 GM (or even a 2400 IM if you feel so strongly), then you have to be at least 2400 FIDE yourself. Until then, just be quiet.

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