Blitz rule

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Blitz rule

Ben,

I alluded to this exact scenario well before you had posted this message...

If it was not your intention to deliver checkmate at the time that the flag was called, then IMHO the TD made a bad call. Once your opponent announced that your flag fell, the TD should not not have given you the luxury of taking time to find the checkmate.

Take care, Jordan

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Blitz rule

Looks like player B wins. The rest is post game analysis.

It can just as easily be argued that had he seen the mate faster and moved, his flag might not have fallen. By player A's argument he could pick up some piece and hold it for 10 minutes before he decides to put it on a square and allow the game to end.

When I was a lil tyke, I was in some blitz playoff, and as I picked up a piece, my opponent called flag. The TD was all, "He gets to finish his move first," so I was thinking all, "Whaaaat. Why?" Then I realised there must have been a mate on the board. Took me like a minute to find it (back off, I was hella lil). If I were my opponent, I would have been thoroughly perturbed. However, I was me, so I did not protest.

[Pierre Denommee]

Re: Blitz rule

Because Player A never actually played the mating move, there's no question - Player B wins on time.

The only time it might get "sticky" would be if the game was unsupervised and Player A actually achieved checkmate on the board while losing on time, thus leaving the arbiter to try to decide which claim (if any) takes precedence.

Player B wins on time unless the mating move have been made, which means that the Queen has been released from the player's hand before the flag fall call.

Not only in blitz, but in all cases in which it is not clear which of the mate or the flag fall has occured first, the mate will stand. The are many reasons for that, must the most compelling one is that it has been ruled that way by Appeal Committees in international competitions.

For Hugh, this is the Definition of move made


Article 4.6


When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, a piece has been released on a square, it cannot be moved to another square on this move. The move is then considered to have been made:


a.


in the case of a capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand


b.


in the case of castling, when the player's hand has released the rook on the square previously crossed by the king. When the player has released the king from his hand, the move is not yet made, but the player no longer has the right to make any move other than castling on that side, if this is legal


c.


in the case of the promotion of a pawn, when the pawn has been removed from the chessboard and the player's hand has released the new piece after placing it on the promotion square. If the player has released from his hand the pawn that has reached the promotion square, the move is not yet made, but the player no longer has the right to play the pawn to another square.




The move is called legal when all the relevant requirements of Article 3 have been fulfilled. If the move is not legal, another move shall be made instead as per Article 4.5.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Blitz rule

Because Player A never actually played the mating move, there's no question - Player B wins on time.

The only time it might get "sticky" would be if the game was unsupervised and Player A actually achieved checkmate on the board while losing on time, thus leaving the arbiter to try to decide which claim (if any) takes precedence.

[Ferdinand Supsup]

Re: Blitz rule

Ferdinand,

I like your NBA analogy, and for a couple of minutes I actually thought that it might change my mind from my earlier reply.

Then I realized one key difference: Touching the piece / ball. In the NBA, in order for a buzzer-beater to count, the ball must be completely out of the shooter's hands at the time the buzzer sounds. If even a fingertip is still on the ball when the buzzer sounds, then the shot is too late.

In the case of the chess game, the finger is still on the piece when the flag is called, which (to me) is a key factor. However throwing the piece makes no sense at all, so maybe the rule could be that once the piece is picked up off its square... who knows?

So, in the end, the decision is still in the air... along with the checkmating piece, and Michael Jordan's shot to win the Championships ;)



Don't sell yourself short... everyone's opinion is valuable, and yours is very thought-provoking. It's worth at least the full two cents :)

Jordan

I guess 1 second is more than enough to complete a 1/2 move quickly and specially if it's a checkmate and ends the game quickly. Had it not been a checkmating move, then I will award the point due to time forfeit to Player B if he has still time left on his clock. The fact that Player A has still one (1) second left on his clock, it's quite logical that Player B must have been aware that Player A has still time left on his clock and could not claim a time forfeit, that is why he made the move and pressed his clock and just simple telling Player A to make a move! Reminded me of the Nike's "JUST DO IT" slogan but its a "CHECKMATE"!!! The best way to end a game of chess.
If I have to gauge the importance and value of a win, we could ask a simple question to any chess player "How do you end a chess game? I guess, the first and foremost answer will be a "CHECKMATE". 2nd might be RESIGNing and 3rd might be time forfeit or a no-show forfeit in that order.

To be fair, it could go either way so a DRAW will be the BEST decision to resolve the dispute!

It actually happened to me in a BLITZ game where we did not realized that we both have no time left on our clocks but my opponent checkmated me at the end. But I have to honor how the game ended. It could have been a draw had I checked the clock and claim a draw before he made the conclusive move! One lesson i learned in playing Blitz Games.

Thank You!

Thanks!

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Blitz rule

...By player A's argument he could pick up some piece and hold it for 10 minutes before he decides to put it on a square and allow the game to end.

Exactly my point!

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Blitz rule

There was a heated disussion last night over a blitz rule.

Player A has one second left on his clock. Player B makes his move and presses his clock. Player A picks up his Q, and is about to play Qe7 mate when Player B points out that his flag is down. Player B claims a win on time. Player A says he has the right to complete his move before Player B can make the claim.

Looks like player B wins. The rest is post game analysis.

It can just as easily be argued that had he seen the mate faster and moved, his flag might not have fallen. By player A's argument he could pick up some piece and hold it for 10 minutes before he decides to put it on a square and allow the game to end.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Blitz rule

Geurt Gijssen opinion ( http://www.chesscafe.com/text/geurt112.pdf ):

Question Dear Sir, I have a question concerning Blitz chess. Does a rule like “Matt vor Klappe” exist? For example: White to move is about to mate, but his flag falls. Black claims a win on time, but White claims mate has priority. In Austria I have discussed this many times, but I cannot find such a rule. With regards, G.H. Brunner (Austria)

Answer The term “Matt vor Klappe” means that an eventual mate is valid, even after the flag has fallen. However, in Blitz games the flag fall must be claimed. If a player mates his opponent’s king, even after a flag fall, and the flag fall has not been claimed, the mate stands. So in the scenario you describe: a player starts to execute the mating move, but his flag falls before he finishes it (meaning: the mating piece was placed on the new square and the player’s hand released the piece). If the opponent claims the flag fall before the move is finished, the game is lost for the player whose flag fell. If the flag falls after the king has been mated, the mate stands, not only in Blitz and Rapid games, but also in normal games"

***

I had once secured a draw in a similar situation. Blitz is a real fight of minds and hands :D

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Blitz rule

...Player B succeeded in his objective, Player A did not. Tough apples. If I was Player A, nothing would have stopped me from putting my Queen on e7. Nothing!

Gordon,

You're mostly right. The only thing I would argue is that it's "tough bananas," not "tough apples". I just don't see a tough apple as being a problem since they are usually pretty crunchy, but a tough banana is really hard to eat, especially when it's still green

Jordan

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Blitz rule

Since player A has still one second left on his clock and is about to place his Queen on the checkmating square to end the game, he should be allowed to complete his final move asap! Just like in basketball (NBA)...

Ferdinand,

I like your NBA analogy, and for a couple of minutes I actually thought that it might change my mind from my earlier reply.

Then I realized one key difference: Touching the piece / ball. In the NBA, in order for a buzzer-beater to count, the ball must be completely out of the shooter's hands at the time the buzzer sounds. If even a fingertip is still on the ball when the buzzer sounds, then the shot is too late.

In the case of the chess game, the finger is still on the piece when the flag is called, which (to me) is a key factor. However throwing the piece makes no sense at all, so maybe the rule could be that once the piece is picked up off its square... who knows?

So, in the end, the decision is still in the air... along with the checkmating piece, and Michael Jordan's shot to win the Championships ;)

My one cent opinion...

Don't sell yourself short... everyone's opinion is valuable, and yours is very thought-provoking. It's worth at least the full two cents :)

Jordan

[Gordon Taylor]

Re: Blitz rule

As Dr Macskasy used to say, "The same move quicker is better!" But let us freeze time at that moment just before Player B is about to press his clock, knowing he is about to be mated. Player B has a clear plan: press the clock and call time--his opponent must pick up his Queen and move it to e7 to end the game, which should take at least a second, and his calling time will gain another fraction of a second (via distraction) so he should be safe. Player A also has a clear objective--move his Queen to e7 and bugger the flag. His opponent may be correct about him losing on time but if it's mate on the board it don't matter. Player B succeeded in his objective, Player A did not. Tough apples. If I was Player A, nothing would have stopped me from putting my Queen on e7. Nothing!

[Ferdinand Supsup]

Re: Blitz rule

There was a heated disussion last night over a blitz rule.

Player A has one second left on his clock. Player B makes his move and presses his clock. Player A picks up his Q, and is about to play Qe7 mate when Player B points out that his flag is down. Player B claims a win on time. Player A says he has the right to complete his move before Player B can make the claim.

Since player A has still one second left on his clock and is about to place his Queen on the checkmating square to end the game, he should be allowed to complete his final move asap! Just like in basketball (NBA), even in a fraction of a second, they still allow a magical shot to be completed since there's still time left on the clock to make the final shot before the buzzer sounds to end the game.
One very important thing in playing Blitz games specially in time scramble and when you know that you will be checkmated in your opponent's next move, you should always check during your turn to move, if your opponent has still time left on his clock, because its your turn and it's the right time for you to claim or stop the clock.
In this case, Player A should win ... I may call it "Checkmate" delivered on time!

The golden rule is to claim it early not late because a Blitz game can still continue even if one or both clock(s) already flagged down specially if both players are not paying attention on their clocks. Again, before you concede defeat, check the time!!! You can still save your lost game. Or you can even win it even with a single pawn or draw with your lone King if your opponent ran out of time!!!

My one cent opinion...

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Blitz rule

If this is allowed - what's to stop allowing announced mates in any number of moves?

I also thought of that before posting. If a player insists on doing this, then the arbiter could impose a rule so that if a player announces a certain number of false mates, then he should lose the game. This would be similar to the disruption rule that would cause a player to lose a game if his cell phone ring.

Another possibility in my Player A/Player B scenario would be if Player A picked up a piece which has only one move - and that move is checkmate (or even stalemate).

Every case brings up new cases... I'm too tired to think about that one lol

[Stephen Wright]

Re: Blitz rule

From the appendices to the FIDE laws of chess, article A.4d (which applies to unsupervised blitz games):

1. The flag is considered to have fallen when a player has made a valid claim to that effect. The arbiter shall refrain from signalling a flag fall, but he may do so if both flags have fallen.
2. To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop both clocks and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant’s flag must remain up and his opponent’s flag down after the clocks have been stopped.
3. If both flags have fallen as described in (1) and (2), the arbiter shall declare the game drawn.

In 1. there is no indication when such a claim must/may be made (as there is with triple repetition, 50-move rule, quickplay finish), therefore I'd say player A is out of luck. However, if 2. is being followed, would player A win if he was able to place his queen on the mating square before his opponent stopped the clocks? Common sense says no, but the rules seem to indicate otherwise ...

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Blitz rule

Jordan wrote:

I would only consider giving the win to Player A if he announced mate while the Queen was in his hand, and before Player B called the flag. Otherwise Player A flags.

If this is allowed - what's to stop allowing announced mates in any number of moves?

Another possibility in my Player A/Player B scenario would be if Player A picked up a piece which has only one move - and that move is checkmate (or even stalemate).