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I lefts parts out as I only want to comment on these two points.
Conservative leaning liberals, particularly seniors who need the social programs, might have decided to go with sure and proven McGuinty.
If the opposition still isn't up to challenging Dalton how could they have been ready to run the province last fall? The voters likely got it right.
I didn't vote. It's a chore to get to either the regular voting place or the advanced poll location.
With my own health issues, I need at least some social programs to remain in fairly good shape. However, I'm altruistic enough to realize that McGuinty is bankrupting the province, if not the country. Ontario's debt is about the same as Greece's, and Ontario has a similar population. My mother, who is a senior on a fixed income, held her nose and voted PC.
Regarding McGuinty being 'proven', in my case to my detriment he took away OHIP coverage of chiropractic treatments in his first term. He took away similar coverage of eye exams. Provincial health care hasn't exactly improved under his management. Assuming he wasn't lying as usual, he promised that this term he'd do something about the provincial deficit. If he actually keeps that promise, why wouldn't he at least entertain thoughts of cutting social programs if push came to shove?
The Greek parliament has apparently approved the latest measures.
No doubt, the Greek people are suffering badly. And no one likes to see others suffer. But their government, going back decades, has an extraordinary amount to answer for. Germans, for example, were told that they would NEVER have to ante up money to help other nations, under the Euro common currency system, which they then agreed to. We have seen how ridiculous that promise has turned out to be; ordinary Germans, who pay more into the Euro institutional system than citizens of any other Euro nation, are funding Greek blunders nowadays. A very high proportion of Greeks either pay no income tax or pay much less than those of other Euro nations, so all the assurances in the world, by the Greek government to the Euro institutions, on debt repayment and compliance with Euro norms on budgetary deficits, mean absolutely nothing unless Greek tax collection improves by several orders of magnitude. This will take nothing less than a societal change in Greece, where corruption of many forms is rampant. In the past several years, the Greek government, led by a succession of so-called 'leaders', has lied, repeatedly and systematically, to the Euro institutions, about their financial positions, all at times when Euro institutions have been trying to get a clear and true picture of the situation, so that they can sincerely help out Greece. One very serious and ongoing problem is that the Greek bank stocks have been sold short, several times, as the crisis has escalated and oscillated, and this has destroyed the personal wealth of many Greek bankers, government leaders, and other wealthy Greeks, leading to capital flight out of Greece on an epidemic scale. The cycle of recession, deflation, and currency depreciation has bitten very hard, but Greece was living well beyond its means in any case. With the fall of the Euro, other countries in the Euro zone are now also suffering because of Greek lies and blunders.
Quite a few experts claim that Greece should not have been admitted to the EU in the early 1980s in the first place. It may have been better to simply thrrow the Greeks overboard about four years ago, forcing them to return to the drachma, and to get their own house in order. The main difference when a sovereign nation is in deep trouble, as compared to a large corporation or even an individual facing possible bankruptcy, is that the sovereign nation can resist outside management of its financial position, as the Greeks are doing now. If German financial managers, for example, were to really run Greece for the next 20 years, using German methods, the country would likely emerge intact in the year 2025 or so. We all know that is not going to happen. Greece has an economy significantly smaller than that of Ontario, so it is quite amazing that such a small country can cause so many problems in our interconnected financial systems of today. Get used to it; we will be seeing more, for example, Spain, which has an unemployment rate of about 20 per cent, mainly from its building sector, which was overheated. Italy at least is quite a wealthy country, looking at the personal wealth of the average Italian, and most Italian government debt is held within Italy, simplifying matters greatly. Italy will make it, no doubt after undergoing a lot of pain.
People didn't vote for the Liberals, in my opinion. The way I saw it they voted for McGuinty and his vision over Hudak. Hudak's election platform amounted to "trust me".
Personally, I could care less what the people in the other provinces think of the government which Ontario elected. It's none of their business just like it's none of Ontario's business who Quebec elects for their provincial government.
I preferred gambling on Hudak. McGuinty is a sure, proven, big time loss for the province. Normally I would've voted for a fringe party, but Dalton absolutely needed to be turfed (alas, he wasn't).
Ontario's economy, as dragged down by the Liberals, affects the whole country in a huge way, so if there ever was a case when what a provincial government does should concern the rest of the country, it is now.
If the federal goverment can't force McGuinty to mend his ways at least a little somehow (which might be the proper way for the rest of the country to properly show its concern, if you agree), protests by citizens might be a respectable option. Even with Dalton having only a minority, as the opposition seems not to be up to really challenging him, at least yet.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 07:21 PM.
Reason: Spelling
What is the latest news out of Greece? IMHO, the bankers should be taking a serious haircut on the Greek debt. (80-90%) You can't get blood out of a stone.
I doubt the European countries want to give Greece the money. I've been going on the assumption Greece will be allowed to default. Sometimes addition by subtraction is the best solution.
Exactly when asked about Toronto you replied that the US is where the real action is.
Okay, now I see why you are so upset. Yes, the "real action" is in Greece. The Greek protests are directly due to the austerity measures being imposed, and so are different in focus from the OWS protests in North America. As such, I make a distinction between the two. I did not mean to diminish in any way the seriousness of the problems faced by the Greek people.
What is the latest news out of Greece? IMHO, the bankers should be taking a serious haircut on the Greek debt. (80-90%) You can't get blood out of a stone.
Exactly when asked about Toronto you replied that the US is where the real action is.
Let's see if we can clarify what real action is? Let's see in the US they disrupted a political rally, in Greece they are burning down numerous buildings estimated to be about 50 and rioting to protest austerity cuts that are arguably the result of the whole financial crisis. Where's the real action? Not in the US. If I was going to make a pronouncement as to where the real action was Greece would merit a comment.
If you were just trying to answer Gary's question then he was asking about Toronto. Actually in all your previous comments on this topic I have yet to see you talk about anything but the US and Canada.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 05:43 PM.
So you don't see the protestors in Greece as being in any way part of this? As I thought this is all about maintaining the priveleged status of North America and the heck with the rest of the world.
As usual, you are putting words in my mouth. Gary asked about the Toronto chapter of OWS, and I replied to that question. I made no comment about Greece whatsoever.
Of course, Greece is part of the OWS movement. OWS is a global movement protesting wealth and income inequity around the world. As far as the privileged status of North America, well the USA is dropping fast, we can only hope they don't drag us down with them.
Time for a form of proportional representation and then we will have a better idea of what people voted for.
I guess that means representatives from lists the political parties present?
Quebec kind of got that in the last federal election when they voted NDP. MP's some of whom it is said had never been to the province. A feature of proportional representation.
I guess they haven't done anything dramatic recently to get in the news. But they do maintain a website. The calendar of events shows regular meetings and various rallies and events.
The real action is in the US. I see some occupiers disrupted a rally for Rick Santorum.
So you don't see the protestors in Greece as being in any way part of this? As I thought this is all about maintaining the priveleged status of North America and the heck with the rest of the world.
Fair enough, as far as the Ontario election result goes.
However, that result doesn't mean the people of Ontario, or Canada, should be happy with what the Ontario Liberals are still doing to our province's economy, after their re-election and after all of their campaign promises.
People didn't vote for the Liberals, in my opinion. The way I saw it they voted for McGuinty and his vision over Hudak. Hudak's election platform amounted to "trust me".
Personally, I could care less what the people in the other provinces think of the government which Ontario elected. It's none of their business just like it's none of Ontario's business who Quebec elects for their provincial government.
Fair enough, as far as the Ontario election result goes.
However, that result doesn't mean the people of Ontario, or Canada, should be happy with what the Ontario Liberals are still doing to our province's economy, after their re-election and after all of their campaign promises.
Their efforts might be more productive if they *Occupied* Dalton's Queen's Park offices in order to protest the McGuinty government's unspeakably misguided policies and waste. Actually, I'll leave it to anyone else to get into the specifics, if they wish to.
If you believe in our system of elections, and I do, McGuinty won a very convincing minority government. One seat shy of a majority.
He went into the election, trailing badly in the polls, and took out ads on TV defending his record, giving his vision for Ontario which looked to me like more of the same, and got the votes.
Hudak didn't present a vision, didn't say what he'd do, and seemed to remind people of the Harris days.
It renews my faith in human nature that simply telling people to vote for someone because he wants to be the treat of the week isn't enough. You have to tell them what you'll do differently and not whom you dislike.
The real action is in the US. I see some occupiers disrupted a rally for Rick Santorum.
The U.S. is a different country with different problems than Canada.
I'm not all that interested in U.S. politics. By Canadian standards they have two right wing political parties. Comparing Canada to arguably the world's major super power, with a population about 10 times ours, makes little sense to me.
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