The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

[Jack Maguire]

Re : The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Judit Polgar chimes in:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/12/judit-polgar-everything-chess

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

I'm in no way dismissing the skills of a player who is a veritable legend in Canadian chess, Duncan. Hazel is on the very short list for the best female Canadian chess player ever. The fact remains, however, that she peaked at 2201. I'm suggesting to you that she could have been a whole let better had she stayed in the boys/open sections and not reverted to the girls only sections.

That is just silly. She played in other open tournaments where she did reasonably well. She was the girl's CYCC champion in her age group and that will be remembered. She stopped playing when it came time to go to university. Hopefully she will return to chess when she finishes her studies. She would very quickly return to the form that would allow her to make the women's olympiad team. As I recall she did quite well as an olympiad player. We are talking about a young woman in her early twenties who could be looking at another twenty years of improvement if she doesn't focus on other things instead (not that there is anything wrong with it if she so chooses).

Frankly, playing in girls only sections was a total waste of her time in terms of improving her chess skills.

CYCC is about demonstrating the skills you have and not so much about improving chess skills. Playing in a Canadian Open or Ontario closed would probably be more useful to someone trying to improve their skills.

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

One of the wonderful things about chess is that one plays with a wide variety of people from different social groups, regardless of age, gender, ability, race or creed. It is a rich social interaction unusual to find. I enjoy having women at the club.

Women have generally been welcomed into the chess "community." There were the first Toronto Ladies' and Toronto Junior Championships 100 years ago, although women weren't allowed into Hart House. Still today it is uncomfortable for most women to be the only female in a male environment. For one thing, there is the risk of sexual harassment and assault. For most women, it is great to see other women in the room. There is social enjoyment in playing in an all-women event. There's still strong social value in saying, "She's the Best Woman player in the region." They may be extra motivated to enter and try to win a women's championship title. Is it 'What women want?' You have to ask them.

A Spelling Bee is one of the few competitions without gender sections.

In a restricted budget era are women's chess championships a priority to be maintained? But also should masters' chess get any funding? Juniors? Seniors? Or should the priority be to fund services in both official languages, coast to coast? Or to develop chess in poorer regions? Or to provide sets, teachers and organizers to schools? Or all of the money to send reps to FIDE official events? So let everyone fight over the crumbs from the memberships of average male adults. Or develop a fundraising strategy to pay for all these worthwhile programs.

Personally, I'm waiting to play in the first Left-handed Championship.

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

The fact that you can post this kind of garbage analysis and so easily dismiss the skills of a past junior player only serves to confirm my
points on this matter ( "very little benefit to the player and quickly forgotten" ).

I will pose just one question to you, Duncan. In 2005, Hazel scored 6/6 in the CYCC U14 Girls. Her TPR for that unblemished performance was just 1304 and she gained but 1 rating point, from 2073 to 2074. Do you really think playing with the girls that year furthered Hazel's chess career?

[Jack Maguire]

Re : The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Perhaps Laszlo Polgar may have said it best. From the Wikipedia entry on his daughter Judit:

Traditionally, chess has been a male-dominated activity, and women are often seen as weaker players; thus advancing the idea of a Women's World Champion.[5] However, from the beginning, László was against the idea that his daughters had to participate in female-only events. "Women are able to achieve results similar, in fields of intellectual activities, to that of men," he wrote. "Chess is a form of intellectual activity, so this applies to chess. Accordingly, we reject any kind of discrimination in this respect."[6] This put the Polgárs in conflict with the Hungarian Chess Federation of the day, whose policy was for women to play in women-only tournaments. Polgár's older sister, Susan, first fought the bureaucracy by playing in men's tournaments and refusing to play in women's tournaments. Susan Polgár, when she was a 15-year-old International Master, said in 1985 that it was due to this conflict that she had not been awarded the Grandmaster title despite having made the norm eleven times.[7]

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

The fact that you can post this kind of garbage analysis and so easily dismiss the skills of a past junior player only serves to confirm my
points on this matter ( "very little benefit to the player and quickly forgotten" ).

I'm in no way dismissing the skills of a player who is a veritable legend in Canadian chess, Duncan. Hazel is on the very short list for the best female Canadian chess player ever. The fact remains, however, that she peaked at 2201. I'm suggesting to you that she could have been a whole let better had she stayed in the boys/open sections and not reverted to the girls only sections. Frankly, playing in girls only sections was a total waste of her time in terms of improving her chess skills. You don't improve by continually crushing your opponents. You improve by losing to better opponents and learning from those losses. If we are to ever see our first ever 2400+ girl/woman in this country it will be precisely because she eschewed the girls only tournaments.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

The fact that you can post this kind of garbage analysis and so easily dismiss the skills of a past junior player only serves to confirm my
points on this matter ( "very little benefit to the player and quickly forgotten" ).

[Jack Maguire]

Re : Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

Reality is these kind of moves are problematic given how the CYCC system is designed and how people react to such events. Given that no real contendor has done this since 2002, its hard to say doing so opens up the doors to more players doing so. More likely it will be a one-off with very little benefit to the player and quickly forgotten as other junior girls carry on as before.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Duncan. The 2002 example you site, namely, Hazel Smith, who played in the CYCC U12 Boys (as it was then called), was rated 1729 at the time and her 4.5/8 performance was pretty much spot on, a 1726 TPR. She was clearly a bit out of her league against the winner that year, Raja Panjwani, rated 2034, and who won the event easily with a 7.5/8. Hazel of course reverted to the Girls section the following year which she won far too easily.

Harmony Zhu would be completely wasting her time playing the 2013 CYCC U8 Girls. The girl who won the 2012 CYCC U8 Girls, Kylie Tan (and who turns 9 in February and thus in the U10 age group in 2013) ,with a 7.5/8 is rated 960, almost 600 points below Harmony. Harmony, imho, is even too strong for the U8 Open. And this is where Bindi and I part company. I think Harmony's chess career would be best furthered by not only playing in an Open section but also playing beyond her age. You don't maximize your chess potential by playing with weaker opponents. Perhaps it only takes one shining example to attract a good number of new girls to the game. By way of example, look what Anand has done for the popularity of chess in India.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

Vlad, you are to be commended for building a decent program;

I have lots of help, John Coleman, NM Zoltan Kiraly, NM Istvan Kiraly, and Herb Alice were there tonight for the 13 kids not playing in the WYCC or King's Island. Alan Baljeu and Terry Coulombe are often on hand as well. It is pretty much a community effort especially when we are helping them prepare for OYCC/CYCC/WYCC.

you might be interested to know this is not without precedent. Seneca Hill P.S. and another group in Vancouver both had highly successful junior programs with huge female participation. These groups fed a significant number of players into the CFC world as well, and produced many CYCC medalists. In fact, the failure of the CFC in the past to understand this led to significant drops in chess interest in later years once the momentum died. The CFC world did very little to welcome these players and understand their reality. This reality often encourages junior girls to gravitate towards CYCC/WYCC events because they are socially more pleasant then other chess events.

We also have some Detroit and Michigan events which seem to be far more sociable than the typical Canadian tournament with the possible exception of Hal Bond's events or some of the Kitchener events. The Michigan Scholastic which a bunch of the kids and I will be attending next weekend will have very much the air of an OYCC at one fifth the price. Last week's Michigan Festival also was very kid and girl friendly as well... Irena Krush was there as an example of what a young woman might achieve in USCF chess. There were several notable female players from Latin America and elsewhere as well. Graham Burgess of Gambit Publications provided analysis of their games for free for anyone that was interested.

The reasons that 12-18 year old boys excel to higher levels then girls are simple. The male dominated clubs are more enjoyable for them, they are mentored by top male adult players more readily, and occasionally futurities are provided for them. Top girls are also hit by messages telling them why they won't succeed, both subtle and not so subtle. I started seeing this when my girls were as young as 7.

I see this more in the beginners/intermediate class than the advanced class though the immaturity of some of the boys does drive away the older girls even in the advanced class who get fed up with the rambunctiousness. The girls in Windsor do have mentors. Hopefully many of them (and the boys as well) will stick with chess for years to come and we can get back to building up a chess culture which can be self sustaining. Tonight at the end of the class a bunch of college age kids or maybe high school age football type guys sat down at our analysis boards after we were done analyzing our games with the kids and played some games. They were paying close attention to the games oblivious to the world around them. They weren't very good but they weren't that bad either. No self consciousness about playing chess. The future for chess looks promising in Windsor at least.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

You are correct that it is not a CCC issue since it was raised as part of his other chess project TCN. On the other hand TCN and CCC are both very much a Bob Armstrong project. I don't want to be associated in any way with the views expressed in that original post and subsequent clarifying posts that would seek to curtail the opportunities for my students. In the last three years we have had five girls (Minya Bai, Lily Zhou, Jeannie Zhang, Rachel Tao, Melissa Lee) attend WYCC who are either students or a former student of the Friday class and friend in the case of Melissa Lee. Lily has gone twice and Rachel and Melissa qualified but didn't attend one of the two times they could have. Half of my Friday advanced class consists of girls who are capable of qualifying for WYCC and probably will at one time or another.

It was clear to me that if there had been support for this idea then we would have been dealing with a motion at the next CFC meeting. One point of pride in our efforts in Windsor is that we seem to be able to attract girls to chess in the same numbers as we do boys. I would like to see the rest of the CFC manage the same thing. Believe me, this kind of motion is not the way to go about it.

Vlad, you are to be commended for building a decent program; you might be interested to know this is not without precedent. Seneca Hill P.S. and another group in Vancouver both had highly successful junior programs with huge female participation. These groups fed a significant number of players into the CFC world as well, and produced many CYCC medalists. In fact, the failure of the CFC in the past to understand this led to significant drops in chess interest in later years once the momentum died. The CFC world did very little to welcome these players and understand their reality. This reality often encourages junior girls to gravitate towards CYCC/WYCC events because they are socially more pleasant then other chess events.

The reasons that 12-18 year old boys excel to higher levels then girls are simple. The male dominated clubs are more enjoyable for them, they are mentored by top male adult players more readily, and occasionally futurities are provided for them. Top girls are also hit by messages telling them why they won't succeed, both subtle and not so subtle. I started seeing this when my girls were as young as 7.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Re : Re: The Women’s Chess System – Finally Time to Abolish It?

If she continues to tack on rating points and becomes a force to be reckoned with, I would suggest you tell her parents to play the CYCC U8 boys. Even thuogh she might outclass her competition, just the fact that a girl is able to play in the boys section will allow other girls to see that it's possible to do so. Plus, the fame will help her as well.

Reality is these kind of moves are problematic given how the CYCC system is designed and how people react to such events. Given that no real contendor has done this since 2002, its hard to say doing so opens up the doors to more players doing so. More likely it will be a one-off with very little benefit to the player and quickly forgotten as other junior girls carry on as before.

[Dan Hunter]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

It was not clear to me that this thread has any direct relationship to the CCC. Some of the severe negative reaction seems a little over the top - especially since Bob A. indicated recently that this is a dead issue and, if you re-read the initial post, the thread was simply a discussion starter...

Anyway, I'm just saying...

To quote Bob Armstrong, who obviously has far too much time on his hands........"Sometimes, you just have to take a stand!"

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

It was not clear to me that this thread has any direct relationship to the CCC. Some of the severe negative reaction seems a little over the top - especially since Bob A. indicated recently that this is a dead issue and, if you re-read the initial post, the thread was simply a discussion starter...

Anyway, I'm just saying...

You are correct that it is not a CCC issue since it was raised as part of his other chess project TCN. On the other hand TCN and CCC are both very much a Bob Armstrong project. I don't want to be associated in any way with the views expressed in that original post and subsequent clarifying posts that would seek to curtail the opportunities for my students. In the last three years we have had five girls (Minya Bai, Lily Zhou, Jeannie Zhang, Rachel Tao, Melissa Lee) attend WYCC who are either students or a former student of the Friday class and friend in the case of Melissa Lee. Lily has gone twice and Rachel and Melissa qualified but didn't attend one of the two times they could have. Half of my Friday advanced class consists of girls who are capable of qualifying for WYCC and probably will at one time or another.

It was clear to me that if there had been support for this idea then we would have been dealing with a motion at the next CFC meeting. One point of pride in our efforts in Windsor is that we seem to be able to attract girls to chess in the same numbers as we do boys. I would like to see the rest of the CFC manage the same thing. Believe me, this kind of motion is not the way to go about it.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

It was not clear to me that this thread has any direct relationship to the CCC. Some of the severe negative reaction seems a little over the top - especially since Bob A. indicated recently that this is a dead issue and, if you re-read the initial post, the thread was simply a discussion starter...

Anyway, I'm just saying...

When you start listing which CFC governor's support your proposal and speculating on which others may you have moved past a simple discussion starter.

I too would ask that my name be removed from the list of CCC supporters; except that I believe it already has been as I indicated I would not have time to participate while on exchange in France.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Support for Motion to Abolish ? What It Includes.

Bob, please remove me from the list of supporters of the CCC. I am all for chess reform and improved chess democracy but I really don't want to be associated with any organization that would seek to limit the opportunities of half the kids that I am coaching in such a draconian manner purely out of a sense of inflated political correctness.

It was not clear to me that this thread has any direct relationship to the CCC. Some of the severe negative reaction seems a little over the top - especially since Bob A. indicated recently that this is a dead issue and, if you re-read the initial post, the thread was simply a discussion starter...

Anyway, I'm just saying...