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I have been absorbed by the book Blindfold Chess (see thread below) and one of the fascinating topics that is discussed is what different players see in their minds. There are many different answers from many different blindfold players. For example Koltanowski claims his "guide" was auditory - meaning a voice would tell him where to move, others saw a vague image of a piece structure and connections of squares, still others knew the "energy" range of the pieces. In my early blindfold career I actually "saw" all the pieces in my mind and could actually shift them when the position changed. It was a complete mental picture from board to board. Later on when I was doing greater numbers of boards I would literally have to examine the board in segments focusing on what was the range of the piece on the last move and "knowing" how that would effect my response. When I switched from board to board occasionally on one or two boards I could recall the entire position but on most boards I just knew where everything was but could not "see the position" just the previous move and my answer. In my later blindfold career I did alot of patching together of positions. Can anyone else who has played blindfold chess describe what they saw during play?
If Jonathan Berry reads this, could you comment on this Jonathan?
I also noticed Hikaru Nakamura posting recently. Hikaru, if you read this could you comment? Anyone else?
when I've played blindfold simul or single games I "see" the geometry (not actual pieces)of local areas of the board that I'm concentrating on with fuzzy edges. If there is something relevant a long ways away (say a long range bishop), that's another fuzzy bit with a line to the area I'm thinkinng about but the middle of that line is indistinct. I also have tended to reconstsruct the position knowing what the moves were.
I see nothing. I liken it to a (London, England) taxi driver. You tell him where you want to go and he takes you there. He doesn't see a map in his mind, nor a vision of all the buildings on the route. It's familiarity, not vision.
I don't recommend it, but that is how I cope with Blindfold Chess--the real cause of Crop Circles.
how do you know that a taxi driver doesn't visualize in some way? Aren't you just projecting what you do onto what you think everyone else does?
When I drive somewhere that I always go to, it's true, I don't visualize and I drive on autopilot....but my autopilot sometimes (often) takes me somewhere else that I go frequently and I only realize when I get to the wrong spot. If I'm driving someplace less familiar, I do visualize in much the same way ....as some fuzzy level of description of a map.
Jonathan, a question for you? Can you remember back to your early days of blindfold chess? Didnt you "see" the board and pieces somewhat graphically? Did you break the board down in sections to achieve greater familiarity of the entire position? What method did you use to "learn" how to play blindfold chess? If at some point you learned to visualize pieces once you got very familiar with the board (or doing greater numbers of boards) did your mind kind of go "on auto pilot" - meaning you werent "seeing anything" but you instinctively knew where all the pieces were?
Roger, I think from what the book "Blindfold Chess" describes and also my communication (admittedly quite limited) with other blindfold players in the past, most blindfold experts share your experiences.
Lucas, Maybe you havent trained yourself to do it well. There are many methods to becoming good at blindfold chess. Question for you: is it just that you suck at it or are you also uncomfortable doing it? Has it strained your mind (at the time of doing blindfold chess) in any way? I think if you found a comfortable way of training it would become easy for you (and fun).
Jonathan, a question for you? Can you remember back to your early days of blindfold chess? Didnt you "see" the board and pieces somewhat graphically? Did you break the board down in sections to achieve greater familiarity of the entire position? What method did you use to "learn" how to play blindfold chess? If at some point you learned to visualize pieces once you got very familiar with the board (or doing greater numbers of boards) did your mind kind of go "on auto pilot" - meaning you werent "seeing anything" but you instinctively knew where all the pieces were?
My analogy does not seem to be a popular one here at ChessTalk. How about this: a blindfold chess position is like a shivering bowl of jello. The longer I hold it still, the better it comes into focus. Not literal focus, because I don't picture the position. If I stated it in terms of Quantum Mechanics, do you think it would have more Talk cred? Schrodinger, why did I forget your wave equation? Psi (pronounced p-see) -whatever.
I began to play "blindfold" chess at age 13. I had a blank board in front of me. I was not blindfolded. Lots of effort. Then after a couple of days I decided to do it without the board, just staring blankly at the wall. It was easier without the board! Very soon afterwards, I did two games simultaneously.
I did try to learn the board well. Quick, f5 is at the intersection of which two diagonals? Still, I can overlook bishop moves! I might be able to visualize a blank board, but not one with pieces on it.
I don't think I ever divided the board into quadrants, nor visualized the pieces on their squares. But the auto-pilot, that might not be too far off the mark.
The chess world has lots of characters who have eidetic or photographic memories, not necessarily for blindfold chess. I just don't happen to be one of them.
When I was playing in excess of 40 CC games at a time, I used to look at a complicated one where I was on the move before I went to bed. Then I would analyse it with my eyes closed until I fell asleep. Usually, in the morning when I awoke I'd have my reply and the analysis, which I would check on a board. If I had been working on a game before I went to bed and couldn't make up my mind between a couple of lines, when I awoke I'd know which line I would play.
Did you even do that?
We discussed this kind of analysis a number of years ago on the CC message board and a couple of the guys told me they wished I'd analyse that way against them. :)
Can you do the word Jumbles in the newspaper and get them most of the time? I think it's along the same line as working chess positions blindfold.
I happened to be reading a book "The Burning House" by Jay Ingram. It's a 1994 book, so if knowledge has continued to double every 7 years (in spite of President Bush), that would mean we know four times as much about the brain now as we did then. On the good side, it should be easy to check out from the public library, even if they are really really slow at ordering new books.
Anyway, in the early part of the book, he just can't seem to let go of the brain motif known as "unilateral neglect". This goes at least until page 71. But along the way, Ingram writes about "Inner Maps of Outer Space", relating that to do amazing things like nonchalantly pick up a cup of coffee and drink from it, the brain has set up a nexus of maps, but they aren't visual maps. You can visualize the cup going to your lips, but you don't.
Blindfold chess might be like that for me.
The left brain contains an "interpreter" whose job is to make plausible (but often incorrect) explanations for otherwise puzzling circumstances. If a blindfold player uses the interpreter, I wouldn't trust his explanation of how he plays the game. See pages 66-70.
Jonathan, The reason I responded as I did with all the questions was I was genuinely curious about your answers as to how you learned blindfold chess. In the book Blindfold Chess with all the research presented there are many different approaches to playing blindfold chess and actually all the research presented (which represents an incredible amount of time and people questioned on the authors part) in the area of how blindfold players see the board and pieces raises alot more questions and interestingly makes the process seem more mysterious. (no easy answers) Thanks for how you responded and I enjoyed your analogy of the jello.
Gary, Early in my tournament playing days (in the 70's) I used to play the Polugaesky Najdorf as Black. In those days the prevailing view was that most positions were winning for White. The majority of my tournaments were club tournaments with one game per week. I was often challenged by strong players who were happy to choose one of the complex variations that GM Gligoric or GM Shamkovich or a host of other GM Sicilian experts were than publishing. I often did what you just described (sleeping overnight on a key position and asking my mind to find a new move during sleep) I had very creative results, not always successful. I have gotten away from doing that (havent done that in a long time) but I would like to get back to doing just that as the results were often exciting.
For a good description of what one sees during blindfold chess play go to: www.blindfoldchess.net and read: Introduction. Interesting reading that explains in more detail.
An old friend who I havent seen in a while contacted me with some interesting news. Apparently he had read my posts (I often wonder what the ratio of silent readers as opposed to posters is on this board) and had gone to www.chessgames.com and picked games from certain old school Russian grandmasters and started playing them over in his head (without the viewer).
He is really enjoying this and manages at least 3 games a session without getting really tired. Whenever he got to a sequence that he didnt understand he would make a note. He would continue with the position as far as he could go and then go through it on the game viewer. What he discovered was that what he wasnt understanding were mostly tactical sequences. He then would identify the tactical theme or themes and single these out for further study. He is really excited about this and has found new inspiration for study. I am waiting to hear back how much it improves his play. I also asked him what he "sees" when he does this. He claims he doesnt see anything - just knows where the pieces are and what they are doing - most of the moves make sense as the pieces "work well" together.
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