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If you allow players to play in a section with others older than themselves you run into the possibility of a younger section having two players better than any of the players in an older section. In this case it would be possible for one of them to play up to try to ensure that both of them won. Would this be fair to the players in the older section?
If you allow players to play in a section with others older than themselves you run into the possibility of a younger section having two players better than any of the players in an older section. In this case it would be possible for one of them to play up to try to ensure that both of them won. Would this be fair to the players in the older section?
Literally I think U18, "U" stands for "under","18" stands for age "18 years old before 2014.1.1", maybe my English is too poor to understand its meaning. If it stands for "under", does it mean "younger"? age 17 is under/younger than 18 years old; 16 is under 18; 15 is under 18? or 15 is not under 18, 15yrs is older than 18yrs?, 14yrs is not under but older than 18yrs? doesn't seem to be right, confusing.
but no matter what people agree or disagree, there should be something clearly saying, for example, it is not allowed to play up in CYCC, but exceptions are 1: win provincial YCC older section 2. or win bursary from provincial YCC older section 3. or top 1 rating in older section 4. or top 10 rating in older section, these items should be written clearly on handbook.
I hope Egidijus can move a motion no matter what is the result, as long as the exceptions item is clearly written in handbook regarding play up.
it is a great idea to have a poll.
Last edited by George Zhou; Thursday, 24th April, 2014, 10:31 PM.
This is really only an issue in the girls older age groups where we lose girls as they get older and in some of the older sections are easier to qualify for WYCC than the younger groups because there are only a few stronger girls playing. If you allow too much playing up you drive out the older girls even more quickly. Some kids skip the OYCC because the competition is not strong enough for them. They had to combine sections in the under 18 group and Rebecca Giblon, the only girl, won against the boys. It wouldn't make sense to have all of our under 12 girls playing in the under 18 or under 16 group at CYCC and have no one represent us in the younger group at WYCC.
It makes sense to provide the players autonomy in choosing the section they wish to compete in. I think our current rule is an unfair intrusion in that autonomy.
If you allow players to play in a section with others older than themselves you run into the possibility of a younger section having two players better than any of the players in an older section. In this case it would be possible for one of them to play up to try to ensure that both of them won. Would this be fair to the players in the older section?
you are right, it doesn't seem to be fair for older section players, however, it doesn't seem to be fair for one age group with many strong and rating closed players(some may get top 3 in older section but for years, they never had a chance to get top 3 in so called their own section), for example girls born in 2002 U12 section is currently dominated by 3 girls from Quebec, Vietnam, Vancouver, (some people may argue that it is only dominated by the Quebec girl, but the Vietnam girl won against her in last year's NAYCC), despite there are some players from Michigan(USCF 1730), Russia(FIDE RP 1775) were strong in the past, but their recent performance are much weaker than the top 3 leaders.
it is unfortunate that no Ontario players are even close to the top in U12 girls. it was not surprising that there were so less girls born in 2002 participating OYCC this year(comparing around 10 girls in previous years, there were only 4 girls including two new players born in 2002 in OYCC). it won't surprise me there will be only one or two players still playing when girls born in 2002 turn to 16yrs or 18yrs.
btw, I support the motion to allow play up or clearly saying what is the exception, not because I want my child to play up in the future, just don't think it is fair while OYCC, NAYCC, WYCC allows, CYCC doesn't.
To support the CYCC organizer(he worries people wait for last minute to register), I have registered my child in her so called own section already, any way she doesn't have any chance to get top 3 in either section, and it is free registration too.
Last edited by George Zhou; Saturday, 26th April, 2014, 04:47 PM.
If a child under 12, as an example, plays in the under 18 I don't much care. However, if the under 12 doesn't win the trip to the WYCC while playing in the higher section, it's too bad. The Child who plays in the under 12 and wins the prize is the one who should be the official representative at the WYCC.
I don't think any player is too good to play the juniors. When I was a junior I played in the juniors. Y'know, in prehistoric times.
If older girls can't compete in their age group against girls 2 or 3 years younger than them, they should suck it up and get better. There's no excuse for a girl in the U18 section to be losing to girls that could qualify for the U14 sections.
If older girls can't compete in their age group against girls 2 or 3 years younger than them, they should suck it up and get better. There's no excuse for a girl in the U18 section to be losing to girls that could qualify for the U14 sections.
How is age related to ability or playing strength? You seem to be implying that someone just less than 18 should [always?] be better than anyone under 14? That is nonsense.
Younger players could be stronger than older ones not only in girls section. For example, this year U16 Open section potentially could be higher-rated than U18 Open. Average rating for top-3, 5 or 10 eligible players is higher for U16 section (R.Wang, R.Preotu and M.Song).
About the main question. I always believed CFC should give more freedom to players and parents to decide which tournament and section they will play. However, in this particular case this approach could create a lot of problems. In my opinion, player should be allowed to play in older section only if he (or she) is much stronger than any other player in his (her) own section.
Should this be allowed? Yes, No. (If you have no opinion, make your mind :)
Following the discussion in the OYCC thread.
If there will be enough voting, I will move a motion to update the CFC handbook section accordingly.
Poll should be anonymous. Will close in 15 days.
My memory may be failing me but wasn't this debated extensively ten or twelve years ago with the outcome that kids could play up one or more classes at their (parents') option? Regardless of what may or may not have happened years ago, shouldn't the CFC's CYCC policies align with FIDE's WYCC policies? What does FIDE allow?
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
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Last time this topic was debated couple of years ago (initiated by Bob Armstrong). Bob also was planning to make a motion at that time, but after a long discussion decided not to do so.
The opinion of the majority at that discussion was:
1. Only strong players (rating might be a criteria) should be allowed to play up, otherwise the pairings in the older section(s) may affect the final results significantly.
2. If a strong player decides to play up at CYCC, he/she must play at the same older section at WYCC, and cannot pretend on the younger's section bursary. The only exemption could be for the players with FIDE special rights, but they still should not receive CFC's bursary, if they'll decide to play at WYCC at their original section.
This is the thread from 2012:
Playing Up at the CYCC - CFC Policy Statement
Started by Bob Armstrong, March 28th, 2012 10:18 AM 12
Replies: 34
Views: 2,120
Last edited by Victor Itkine; Tuesday, 29th April, 2014, 09:15 PM.
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