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Loss of zone status, loss of arbiter assignments, increased scrutiny and obstruction of player and arbiter titles are things that might be forseen. I don't think that these would result from Kirsan himself as everything that I have heard from people who are close to him or people who know people who are close to him is that he is not one to operate in that manner. Some of those around him on the other hand....
Vlad thank you for taking the time to reply. THere is a huge amount of documentation about journalists and others critical of Krisan that were murdered in Kamylkia, while Kirsan was governor in Kamylkia. You can start by reading articles about him in such respected publications as THe New Yorker.http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...urrentPage=all
Which makes it difficult to reconcile this fact with the view that you seem to be promoting that Kirsan is evil. Evil has a way of settling scores.
This is a recurring theme among the Kasparov supporters who have contacted us and sought to influence our vote. This attempt to drive a wedge between Hal Bond and either myself or perhaps the executive seems to me simply an attempt to execute the strategy that Musashi refers to as "injuring the corners." Hal is effective as a FIDE rep. He gets plum assignments as an arbiter because he is an extremely competent arbiter. He manages to get things done at FIDE when things go off the rails for us which they often do with an organization such as FIDE. In seven years of observing Hal and attending his tournaments and interacting with Hal at the CFC over the last three years he has always shown himself to be a conscientious and honest dealer in every matter where I have interacted with him. You have heard several reports from people who are talking to each other and purport to know what transpired on a secret ballot. It is hard for me to understand what outcome these people are seeking. History is full of examples of loyal generals or advisers to leaders being brought down as disloyal without any truth to the charges simply as a way to remove political rivals or eventually remove a leader by removing his support system.
Of course perhaps it is simply an attempt to remove a perceived obstacle and not an attempt to gut the CFC leadership which would be the result I am afraid.
So if Kasparov wins, which we admittedly have little influence on then you would be interested in Canadian Chess sponsorship again. Our current sponsor has a different opinion than you do so it is still possible to find individuals in the business community who will support Canadian chess regardless who is in charge at FIDE.
“ We must bear in mind, then, that there is nothing more difficult and dangerous, or more doubtful of success, than an attempt to introduce a new order of things. For the innovator has for enemies all those who derived advantages from the old order of things, whilst those who expect to be benefited by the new institutions will be but lukewarm defenders. This indifference arises in part from fear of their adversaries who were favoured by the existing laws, and partly from the incredulity of men who have no faith in anything new that is not the result of well-established experience. Hence it is that, whenever the opponents of the new order of things have the opportunity to attack it, they will do it with the zeal of partisans, whilst the others defend it but feebly, so that it is dangerous to rely upon the latter.” - Niccolò Machiavelli’s The Prince
Kirsan was also removed by Vladimir Putin as governor of Kalmykia. Putin is no doubt amoral and certainly was head of the KGB where no one expects to find a boy scout. This attempt to closely link Kirsan with Putin is asking us to willingly subscribe to a logical fallacy and at times your rhetoric in this skates perilously close to Godwin's Law. Putin is not running for FIDE president and if he was and the alternative were Garry then Garry would win by an overwhelming majority. Unfortunately our choice is not so easy.
I take the choice between right and wrong and good and evil very seriously, so seriously that I feel a need to ignore the magician's trick of redirecting our attention to Putin and actually look at the two choices that we actually have, being Kirsan and Gary.
What is evil? Evil is self serving, manipulative, vindictive, exhibits fits of temper, exalts itself. Evil persuades us that the ends justify the means. Evil appears to us as shiny and beautiful thing which we associate with good. How can we tell if something is good or evil? By the fruit, by the actions, by the outcomes that the person or group has previously shown and generated. I ask about the things that concern me and the best response I got was that they had not seen such actions and in any case there was a level of maturity now that would prevent such actions plus there will be a board of responsible individuals to reign in these tendencies if there is a temptation to exhibit them. The most concerning to me is the situation of Salov and the attempt to persuade organizers not to invite him to tournaments on penalty of boycott by Gary. There are reports from Spassky, Karpov and others which reveal someone with a temper and a tendency to fly off the handle and isolate former friends and allies. Sometimes they bury their differences after many years as in the case of Seirawan but some of these former allies remain banished. There is a pattern, a history which points in one direction. There are too many traces of that history for it to be washed away. Too many quotes of Gary in mainstream publications like New In Chess, Inside Chess, Chessbase and so on to just ignore it all.
For the rank and file it does not matter who we vote for nor who wins as FIDE issues are far from their main concerns. They want us to maintain the rating system, make sure that when they have concerns they are listened to and get addressed and that the CFC is generally responsive and delivers the services that are expected of them.
Looking at the situation objectively we have a man who has given millions of dollars and raised millions of dollars for chess in Kirsan. On the other hand we have a chess icon and hero to millions on the other side but there are feet of clay on our idol.
Yes you do if you want to persuade anyone who wants to be persuaded by logic and is not swayed by discredited logical fallacies.
One person familiar with living in communist countries on being told of this situation and the alien abduction suggested that maybe Kirsan is not crazy and just is using that as a smokescreen to save himself from a future purge. If he is perceived as crazy then he is less likely to face execution when he is inevitably perceived as a threat to the great and illustrious leader. This subterfuge has been used in the past to escape an unfortunate fate. I'm not sure that this is the case here but it is one possible alternative explanation.
Vlad thank you for taking the time to reply. THere is a huge amount of documentation about journalists and others critical of Krisan that were murdered in Kamylkia, while Kirsan was governor in Kamylkia. You can start by reading articles about him in such respected publications as THe New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...urrentPage=all
While his fellow citizens in Kamylkia starved Kirsan spent millions of dollars on a chess palace. He is an agent and close friend of Putin and the fact that another governor was selected in his region has not changed this. Incidentally Putins law that he can "coronate" governors is another one of his acts of dictatorship that Kirsan benefited from albeit he was not governor permanently but "legally" even Putin himself had to take a back seat as prime minister for a period of time.
Because Canada did not suffer for openly supporting Karpov does not automatically make Kirsan a good person. You continually talk about "logical fallacies" and this is one of several in your reply.
You have made no effort to refute my assertion that you do not consider the preferences of the CFC membership as a decisive factor or even the poll here that you yourself put up. Chess has suffered by a lack of corporate sponsorship world wide compared to many other sports in a large part because of the reputation of the likes of Kirsan who even yourself have to consider far fetched excuses to rationalize his shortcomings. The rest of the world outside of chess does not buy these far fetched scenarios.
You want to call me illogical for suggesting that you consider listening to your own membership. Vlad, you insult me for offering to support Canadian Chess? I put my money where my mouth is many times over the years and the only thing you have to offer here are glib replies? How dare you! If the president of the USCF who supports Gary can't persuade you, your own membership can't persuade you, and my offers to support Canadian Chess can't persuade then i really don't have anything else to say.
Many members here recall a spirited discussion I had on the old Ottawa Chess Club forums regarding Kirsan's holding a chess tournament in Libya when Ghadaffi was in charge that restricted Israeli players from playing. So, i have no idea what answer you are referring to. What consequences are you talking about if Kirsan won??
Loss of zone status, loss of arbiter assignments, increased scrutiny and obstruction of player and arbiter titles are things that might be forseen. I don't think that these would result from Kirsan himself as everything that I have heard from people who are close to him or people who know people who are close to him is that he is not one to operate in that manner. Some of those around him on the other hand....
Last time the CFC openly supported Karpov and the CFC did not suffer any consequences.
Which makes it difficult to reconcile this fact with the view that you seem to be promoting that Kirsan is evil. Evil has a way of settling scores.
Of course I was assured that Canada did indeed vote the way they said they did for Karpov last time although I have heard several reports to the contrary from sources that I suspect know the truth.
This is a recurring theme among the Kasparov supporters who have contacted us and sought to influence our vote. This attempt to drive a wedge between Hal Bond and either myself or perhaps the executive seems to me simply an attempt to execute the strategy that Musashi refers to as "injuring the corners." Hal is effective as a FIDE rep. He gets plum assignments as an arbiter because he is an extremely competent arbiter. He manages to get things done at FIDE when things go off the rails for us which they often do with an organization such as FIDE. In seven years of observing Hal and attending his tournaments and interacting with Hal at the CFC over the last three years he has always shown himself to be a conscientious and honest dealer in every matter where I have interacted with him. You have heard several reports from people who are talking to each other and purport to know what transpired on a secret ballot. It is hard for me to understand what outcome these people are seeking. History is full of examples of loyal generals or advisers to leaders being brought down as disloyal without any truth to the charges simply as a way to remove political rivals or eventually remove a leader by removing his support system.
Of course perhaps it is simply an attempt to remove a perceived obstacle and not an attempt to gut the CFC leadership which would be the result I am afraid.
Absolutely true Erik. I am the business sponsor you are referring to. The fact that Kirsan has zero votes in this poll should have an influence on the executive vote. The fact that I would be interested in getting involved with Canadian Chess sponsorship again if FIDE had a credible leadership that in turn would bring in credible business sponsors should also have an influence.
So if Kasparov wins, which we admittedly have little influence on then you would be interested in Canadian Chess sponsorship again. Our current sponsor has a different opinion than you do so it is still possible to find individuals in the business community who will support Canadian chess regardless who is in charge at FIDE.
I am surprised that so far it has proven to be far from an easy decision for the CFC executive.
“ We must bear in mind, then, that there is nothing more difficult and dangerous, or more doubtful of success, than an attempt to introduce a new order of things. For the innovator has for enemies all those who derived advantages from the old order of things, whilst those who expect to be benefited by the new institutions will be but lukewarm defenders. This indifference arises in part from fear of their adversaries who were favoured by the existing laws, and partly from the incredulity of men who have no faith in anything new that is not the result of well-established experience. Hence it is that, whenever the opponents of the new order of things have the opportunity to attack it, they will do it with the zeal of partisans, whilst the others defend it but feebly, so that it is dangerous to rely upon the latter.” - Niccolò Machiavelli’s The Prince
The fact that Kirsan was directly appointed by Vladimir Putin when he was governor of Kalmykia should also have an influence, to any one that know's the difference between right and wrong, between good and evil.
Kirsan was also removed by Vladimir Putin as governor of Kalmykia. Putin is no doubt amoral and certainly was head of the KGB where no one expects to find a boy scout. This attempt to closely link Kirsan with Putin is asking us to willingly subscribe to a logical fallacy and at times your rhetoric in this skates perilously close to Godwin's Law. Putin is not running for FIDE president and if he was and the alternative were Garry then Garry would win by an overwhelming majority. Unfortunately our choice is not so easy.
I take the choice between right and wrong and good and evil very seriously, so seriously that I feel a need to ignore the magician's trick of redirecting our attention to Putin and actually look at the two choices that we actually have, being Kirsan and Gary.
What is evil? Evil is self serving, manipulative, vindictive, exhibits fits of temper, exalts itself. Evil persuades us that the ends justify the means. Evil appears to us as shiny and beautiful thing which we associate with good. How can we tell if something is good or evil? By the fruit, by the actions, by the outcomes that the person or group has previously shown and generated. I ask about the things that concern me and the best response I got was that they had not seen such actions and in any case there was a level of maturity now that would prevent such actions plus there will be a board of responsible individuals to reign in these tendencies if there is a temptation to exhibit them. The most concerning to me is the situation of Salov and the attempt to persuade organizers not to invite him to tournaments on penalty of boycott by Gary. There are reports from Spassky, Karpov and others which reveal someone with a temper and a tendency to fly off the handle and isolate former friends and allies. Sometimes they bury their differences after many years as in the case of Seirawan but some of these former allies remain banished. There is a pattern, a history which points in one direction. There are too many traces of that history for it to be washed away. Too many quotes of Gary in mainstream publications like New In Chess, Inside Chess, Chessbase and so on to just ignore it all.
If the CFC endorses Kirsan it will be a day of shame for chess in Canada and will not reflect well for Canada in the larger world either.
It seems to me that the voters here know what is good for chess in Canada and I would be willing to bet that a larger poll of all CFC members would have a very similar result. So who's interest is the executive protecting if it is not those that participate and enjoy this game much? Is the CFC now going to deteriorate from incompetence to not caring about what it's members want or what sponsors would support?
For the rank and file it does not matter who we vote for nor who wins as FIDE issues are far from their main concerns. They want us to maintain the rating system, make sure that when they have concerns they are listened to and get addressed and that the CFC is generally responsive and delivers the services that are expected of them.
Looking at the situation objectively we have a man who has given millions of dollars and raised millions of dollars for chess in Kirsan. On the other hand we have a chess icon and hero to millions on the other side but there are feet of clay on our idol.
I find it interesting that we are told the poll is one step in the consultive process but not necessarily a decisive factor. Vladimir Putin and his cronies are making themselves good candidates as potential indictees in the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Need I say more?
Yes you do if you want to persuade anyone who wants to be persuaded by logic and is not swayed by discredited logical fallacies.
One person familiar with living in communist countries on being told of this situation and the alien abduction suggested that maybe Kirsan is not crazy and just is using that as a smokescreen to save himself from a future purge. If he is perceived as crazy then he is less likely to face execution when he is inevitably perceived as a threat to the great and illustrious leader. This subterfuge has been used in the past to escape an unfortunate fate. I'm not sure that this is the case here but it is one possible alternative explanation.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Sunday, 11th May, 2014, 01:11 AM.
The answer I received was not from you. It came from some general CT members when I had asked a question after a discussion of sponsorship. I think I had asked what had caused the loss of a BIG sponsor previously, although I don't think I mentioned you by name. Those answering did know to whom I was referring though!
I agree that we should not support Kirsan.
As far as a loss of anything, I just wonder if Canada could suffer any consequences if they vote against Kirsan and he wins. I don't know what those consequences could be, it was simply general question. One example would be whether Hal Bond would receive less invitations to be an arbiter at big events.
I specifically asked about any down side the CFC suffered when they openly supported Karpov in the last FIDE election and was told that nothing untoward happened and moreover Hal's invitations to be an arbiter were not affected and in fact he recently was an arbiter at the candidates.
Many members here recall a spirited discussion I had on the old Ottawa Chess Club forums regarding Kirsan's holding a chess tournament in Libya when Ghadaffi was in charge that restricted Israeli players from playing. So, i have no idea what answer you are referring to. What consequences are you talking about if Kirsan won?? Last time the CFC openly supported Karpov and the CFC did not suffer any consequences. Of course I was assured that Canada did indeed vote the way they said they did for Karpov last time although I have heard several reports to the contrary from sources that I suspect no the truth.
The answer I received was not from you. It came from some general CT members when I had asked a question after a discussion of sponsorship. I think I had asked what had caused the loss of a BIG sponsor previously, although I don't think I mentioned you by name. Those answering did know to whom I was referring though!
I agree that we should not support Kirsan.
As far as a loss of anything, I just wonder if Canada could suffer any consequences if they vote against Kirsan and he wins. I don't know what those consequences could be, it was simply general question. One example would be whether Hal Bond would receive less invitations to be an arbiter at big events.
Hmmm! Not quite the answer I received awhile back when I questioned the incident/withdrawal of support!
DARE I SUGGEST any support of Kirsan would be due to fears that we might suffer some consequences if he won.
Are there benefits we receive now that would evoke these fears?
Many members here recall a spirited discussion I had on the old Ottawa Chess Club forums regarding Kirsan's holding a chess tournament in Libya when Ghadaffi was in charge that restricted Israeli players from playing. So, i have no idea what answer you are referring to. What consequences are you talking about if Kirsan won?? Last time the CFC openly supported Karpov and the CFC did not suffer any consequences. Of course I was assured that Canada did indeed vote the way they said they did for Karpov last time although I have heard several reports to the contrary from sources that I suspect know the truth.
Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Saturday, 10th May, 2014, 06:25 PM.
Absolutely true Erik. I am the business sponsor you are referring to. The fact that Kirsan has zero votes in this poll should have an influence on the executive vote. The fact that I would be interested in getting involved with Canadian Chess sponsorship again if FIDE had a credible leadership that in turn would bring in credible business sponsors should also have an influence. I am surprised that so far it has proven to be far from an easy decision for the CFC executive.
The fact that Kirsan was directly appointed by Vladimir Putin when he was governor of Kalmykia should also have an influence, to any one that know's the difference between right and wrong, between good and evil. If the CFC endorses Kirsan it will be a day of shame for chess in Canada and will not reflect well for Canada in the larger world either.
It seems to me that the voters here know what is good for chess in Canada and I would be willing to bet that a larger poll of all CFC members would have a very similar result. So who's interest is the executive protecting if it is not those that participate and enjoy this game much? Is the CFC now going to deteriorate from incompetence to not caring about what it's members want or what sponsors would support? I find it interesting that we are told the poll is one step in the consultive process but not necessarily a decisive factor. Vladimir Putin and his cronies are making themselves good candidates as potential indictees in the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Need I say more?
Hmmm! Not quite the answer I received awhile back when I questioned the incident/withdrawal of support!
DARE I SUGGEST any support of Kirsan would be due to fears that we might suffer some consequences if he won.
Are there benefits we receive now that would evoke these fears?
Thee was a Canadian business sponsor who withdrew his dollars due to the public relations disaster of the FIDE President posing for photos with terrorist dictators. Kasparov may have some media recognition, but probably more than Anand or Carlsen. So who the FIDE President is can affect us players in Canada.
Absolutely true Erik. I am the business sponsor you are referring to. The fact that Kirsan has zero votes in this poll should have an influence on the executive vote. The fact that I would be interested in getting involved with Canadian Chess sponsorship again if FIDE had a credible leadership that in turn would bring in credible business sponsors should also have an influence. I am surprised that so far it has proven to be far from an easy decision for the CFC executive.
The fact that Kirsan was directly appointed by Vladimir Putin when he was governor of Kalmykia should also have an influence, to any one that know's the difference between right and wrong, between good and evil. If the CFC endorses Kirsan it will be a day of shame for chess in Canada and will not reflect well for Canada in the larger world either.
It seems to me that the voters here know what is good for chess in Canada and I would be willing to bet that a larger poll of all CFC members would have a very similar result. So who's interest is the executive protecting if it is not those that participate and enjoy this game so much? Is the CFC now going to deteriorate to the point of not caring about what it's members want or what sponsors would support? I find it interesting that we are told the poll is one step in the consultive process but not necessarily a decisive factor. Vladimir Putin and his cronies are making themselves good candidates as potential indictees for the UN International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. Need I say more?
Last edited by Sid Belzberg; Sunday, 11th May, 2014, 12:54 AM.
Does Kirsan truly believe he was abducted by aliens? I heard that rumour and Wikipedia tells me it's true, but how would anyone take him seriously as an option if that were true?
If you watch the History Channel here in Canada you would know that he isn't the only one who has been abducted. The truth is out there. :)
I believe he has won two elections after that was widely reported.
Re: Objection Temporarily Withdrawn: Canada's Vote in FIDE Election for Presi
Does Kirsan truly believe he was abducted by aliens? I heard that rumour and Wikipedia tells me it's true, but how would anyone take him seriously as an option if that were true?
The membership numbers are usually posted as of May 1st on the CFC web site. I had a look and the numbers to May 1, 2014 haven't been posted.
This has been brought to my attention and it is being worked on along with the other half dozen hot potatoes that I and the executive are dealing with.
That's the main reason why Vlad came up with this survey, to influence and justify his potential endorsement.
To influence and justify my potential endorsement? I don't need to influence, nor justify my potential endorsement. I know what the sentiment on the executive is and was and I know what my initial vote in the straw poll was. I did not feel strongly enough about my initial choice to argue vociferously one way or the other. I put it at 50.5% for one candidate and 49.5% for the other with me being willing to listen and be influenced by reinforcing and alternative points of view. This poll and thread is a continuation of the consultation process and not the vote that will decide how the executive will vote in this matter. It is meant to inform me and should be considered as one of a number of steps that I have taken to help me arrive at a decision.
Thank you for your post, Erik! I agree with you that for some, perhaps even majority, of CFC members, it is irrelevant who is a FIDE President. Its a different story for players attending international competitions, both personal and team, including youth tournaments. Also the chess organizers approaching sponsors could feel the difference - the sponsors, both Government and corporate, would feel way more comfortable if CFC is a member of FIDE, headed by World's famous GM media friendly Gary Kasparov, whose name is widely known even to people never played a game, then whoever else. So Governors not recognizing the difference could answer something like "either is fine with me", however those who have an opinion and do care about CFC vote could have a chance to voice their opinion AND participate in the process. So Governors who have "limited time" would just select "either is fine with me" - that should not take a lot of their time. But why not to give an opportunity of participating to other Governors?
Thee was a Canadian business sponsor who withdrew his dollars due to the public relations disaster of the FIDE President posing for photos with terrorist dictators. Kasparov may have some media recognition, but probably more than Anand or Carlsen. So who the FIDE President is can affect us players in Canada.
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