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I'm not going to ascribe a percentage to the impact of the FIDE leadership on chess in Canada - it varies greatly based on circumstances. As you know, when Fischer played Spassky many federations experienced and explosive 500% growth rate which does show what is possible. Under Kirsan there has been almost no growth attributable to FIDE leadership.
When we did the World Chess Festival in Saint John we had 750 accredited international journalists including AP, Rueters, TASS, Sports Illustrated, the London Times, New York Times etc. Currently top FIDE events have almost no coverage and most are played in Khanty Mansiysk with no spectators present.
Garry Kasparov has the cache to attract substantial international sponsorship to chess and get the game back in the spotlight. He has also made it a personal mission to promote scholastic chess and currently resides a few hundred miles from the Canadian border.
On the domestic scene voting for Kirsan means losing our largest patron of all time. I'll not itemize everything he's done other than to say he's supported several Olympiad Teams, Canadian Championships and even provided employment for several of Canada's top players including IM Teplitsky, IM Livshitts and GM Charbonneau.
I'm given to understand the FIDE has made an undisclosed promise to the CFC if they vote for Kirsan. The value of the promise is drastically less than what Sid has already given.
From both an international, and domestic perspective I consider the upside for the CFC to be much better by voting Kasparov.
Please send any comments you have and send your first question.
Thanks, Vlad for taking the time to respond.
Robert
I like your reference to Khanty Mansiysk. Even though it's great that no tournament has to be cancelled because Moscow or KM will be offered as venues, it does give a little bit of a "bail-out" or "move-back-home-with-parents" feeling. Financial institutions will fail if they expect to be bailed out, new graduates won't find jobs if they can always live at home and FIDE needs to find new cities to host tournaments.
When it was announced that there were no bids for the WC Match, every person who follows chess knew that it was going to be held in Russia. And that can't be healthy because it affects the attitudes of proposals.
Maybe it's unreasonable to expect KM-like conditions, and if the standard were lowered there would be more cities willing to host.
Last edited by Tony Li; Friday, 4th July, 2014, 08:51 PM.
This is a request to Nigel. Can we have this thread restricted to only Robert and Vlad? This would avoid the thread being derailed by others. Any comments regarding this debate by others can be posted in a different thread. Thank you.
Good idea, but unless I sit here like a policeman 24x7 I can't really enforce such a request. People should conduct themselves with respect. But I can do my best. Maybe I can change the name of the thread? Let's see. ...
Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.
I'm not going to ascribe a percentage to the impact of the FIDE leadership on chess in Canada - it varies greatly based on circumstances. As you know, when Fischer played Spassky many federations experienced and explosive 500% growth rate which does show what is possible. Under Kirsan there has been almost no growth attributable to FIDE leadership.
That had more to do with Bobby Fischer than FIDE. The lone genius against the Soviet machine struck a chord in the collective imagination. What have we had recently? Toilet-gate.
When we did the World Chess Festival in Saint John we had 750 accredited international journalists including AP, Rueters, TASS, Sports Illustrated, the London Times, New York Times etc. Currently top FIDE events have almost no coverage and most are played in Khanty Mansiysk with no spectators present.
I think part of that is having too many events and too many world championship matches. I would personally prefer a return to the three year cycle but the GM's that I have spoken to, like the present system so I am not going to criticize.
Garry Kasparov has the cache to attract substantial international sponsorship to chess and get the game back in the spotlight.
I believe the height of his powers to attract sponsorship were when he had the Intel deal. That fell apart because of the fighting and back-biting and from what I have seen he has not shown that he can get along with people.
He has also made it a personal mission to promote scholastic chess and currently resides a few hundred miles from the Canadian border.
I can promote scholastic chess. That is an easy sell. Keeping them interested into the teen years is the hard part.
On the domestic scene voting for Kirsan means losing our largest patron of all time.
We have had several larger patrons who have passed away. Unless I am missing something I would talk to Larry Bevand about that assertion as he has actually done something for us lately and some pretty substantial somethings.
I'll not itemize everything he's done other than to say he's supported several Olympiad Teams,
Several? Sid said two I seem to recall. Others told me one and one Canadian Closed. Several would imply four. He was involved for just over six years?
Canadian Championships and even provided employment for several of Canada's top players including IM Teplitsky, IM Livshitts and GM Charbonneau.
I'm given to understand the FIDE has made an undisclosed promise to the CFC if they vote for Kirsan. The value of the promise is drastically less than what Sid has already given.
That seems hard to believe. How much has Sid given? I will be checking.
From both an international, and domestic perspective I consider the upside for the CFC to be much better by voting Kasparov.
How so? Kirsan has raised millions for FIDE.
Please send any comments you have and send your first question.
Thanks, Vlad for taking the time to respond.
Robert
You are welcome.
I knew who Sid Belzberg was from reading about him and his company in the financial press. He was not around in any of the periods that I have been active in Canadian chess. If Kevin Spraggett had not written an article about him I wouldn't have a clue that he had anything to do with chess. When I spoke to Sid on the phone I got the impression that any promises were contingent on the CFC nominating and endorsing Gary and Gary winning the FIDE election. He says that he never implied that but that is what I recall and what my notes from the call seem to imply. At the time I did not find it likely that Gary could win. I am still skeptical.
What assurance can we be given that Gary has managed to improve his skills in the area of human relations which been his Achilles heel and has led to so many problems in his previous efforts at chess organization? He has a history of vindictiveness. This was shown once again in his reaction to the CFC's decision in the Globe and Mail article and the Vice.com article. I don't see any indication that anything has changed based on his dealings with the CFC.
"By the fine, fine wind that takes its course though the chaos of the world"
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Saturday, 5th July, 2014, 02:40 AM.
Looks like the adults can learn a thing or two from the children.
In what sense could Ruth Haring, USCF President, ever be considered a spokesperson for the Kasparov side? Was she appointed Kasparov's spokesperson to Canada?
Since the USCF is supporting Gary and Ruth is its president and she is very well connected to the Kasparov campaign she was a very logical person to have talk to me. She is the only person associated with the Kasparov campaign that I have interacted with at any length who has totally clean hands as far as I am concerned.
You never considered Kasparov, you were all Kirsan all the way. You have outright lied in this threads, as Sid has alleged. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
The members of the executive can confirm that I did argue for Kasparov at the first poll though it was a lukewarm argument as I was not fully informed and perhaps my position could be more accurately characterized as undecided. I said that I was at 49.5% for Kirsan and 50.5% for Kasparov. That was my position in an uninformed state before I had considered the facts of the campaign and the candidates.
Sasha is so far silent as to what he is going to do with these discoveries about Hal Bond. But it should be perfectly within Sasha's power to lodge a formal complaint to FIDE about Hal's conduct in this business, and Hal has publicly admitted to one wrongdoing and is now implicated in another.
You come off very poorly here. So poorly that perhaps my further responses to you should be less serious in order to address you with the same weight that you bring to these discussions.
I imagine it's a tough decision for Sasha, as Hal unlike you has a certain air of integrity about him and appears to have just made perhaps inadvertant bad choices.
You have no such air of integrity and 'bad choices' is your middle name.
Riiiiight. The more you reveal yourselves the more the outcomes that you hope for fly away from your grasp. In another post you imply that I orchestrated your demonstrations of stupidity as the puppet master manipulating your strings and making you dance to the music of my choosing. It is simpler than that. The more I engage you and the peanut gallery the more quickly the sterility of your vision is revealed for all to see. I won't defeat you. You will defeat yourself.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Saturday, 5th July, 2014, 10:06 AM.
Since the USCF is supporting Gary and Ruth is its president and she is very well connected to the Kasparov campaign she was a very logical person to have talk to me. She is the only person associated with the Kasparov campaign that I have interacted with at any length who has totally clean hands as far as I am concerned.
Irregardless of all that, Ruth Haring is not and never was the official spokesperson for the Kasparov campaign in Canada. You can't avoid the fact that you shirked your responsibilities by avoiding contact with Robert Hamilton. It was a dereliction of duty.
The members of the executive can confirm that I did argue for Kasparov at the first poll though it was a lukewarm argument as I was not fully informed and perhaps my position could be more accurately characterized as undecided. I said that I was at 49.5% for Kirsan and 50.5% for Kasparov. That was my position in an uninformed state before I had considered the facts of the campaign and the candidates.
Of course you're going to say this, to give your public image some validity. But it's all smoke and mirrors. In your heart of hearts, you NEVER considered Kasparov.
Actions speak louder than words, and your dereliction of duty to talk with Robert Hamilton is far more important than anything you told the Executive.
The more you reveal yourselves the more the outcomes that you hope for fly away from your grasp. In another post you imply that I orchestrated your demonstrations of stupidity as the puppet master manipulating your strings and making you dance to the music of my choosing. It is simpler than that. The more I engage you and the peanut gallery the more quickly the sterility of your vision is revealed for all to see. I won't defeat you. You will defeat yourself.
It's not me you have to worry about. Like Steve Douglas said to Sid Belzberg, I have no skin in this game. My postings here are out of concern for the CFC because a healthy CFC will be good for my business entity going forward.
The Hal Bond thing was a natural progression given that someone on the Executive did imply Hal was paid by FIDE. All my posts on that topic revealed was that IF Hal was in conflict, it was a serious breach of ethics that needed to be addressed. Nothing stupid about that, unless you just don't care about ethics (quite possible).
I am glad you have such supreme confidence. Pride always precedes a fall. Perhaps you should read the story of the turtle and the hare.
Last edited by Paul Bonham; Saturday, 5th July, 2014, 06:01 PM.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Irregardless of all that, Ruth Haring is not and never was the official spokesperson for the Kasparov campaign in Canada. You can't avoid the fact that you shirked your responsibilities by avoiding contact with Robert Hamilton. It was a dereliction of duty.
That is quite a load of hooey you are peddling there. Kasparov himself and high ranking members of the Kasparov have disavowed Robert at points. I have Michael K. saying point blank when I asked for a clarification of whether Sid and Robert are associated with the campaign or not that Sid is not associated with the campaign. No affirmation of Robert, just an omission to deny him. So there seems to be some mixed signals there. He is leaving himself some plausible deniability there it seems to me.
Robert insists on phone calls to communicate - I have an unlisted number - and he insists on using an email account that I don't use because I am not the only one who has access to it. I responded to Robert on June 22nd and didn't get anything back on the email account I use until July 1st, Canada Day. The complaint is that I didn't make myself available Canada Day. Tough. I communicated with the government, sent emails, posted here and dealt with a large number of emails and took time to do some family things.
Kasparov is trying to get elected. If he wants to be successful he should probably try to communicate clearly with the people he is trying to influence by himself or through his clearly identified representatives.
Why don't you stay out of this thread where we are trying to communicate? Trying to make yourself seem important?
Of course you're going to say this, to give your public image some validity. But it's all smoke and mirrors. In your heart of hearts, you NEVER considered Kasparov.
Actions speak louder than words, and your dereliction of duty to talk with Robert Hamilton is far more important than anything you told the Executive.
There was no point in talking to Robert while Kasparov and the rest of the campaign were making denials that we had spoken to anyone associated with them which included the contacts that had been made with Robert. This is Hal's file and he has been handling it aside from the contacts with Ruth Haring.
Re: The horse has left the barn or the caravan has moved on.
Dear Vlad,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I apologise for not having responded as quickly as intended. I am in New Brunswick where the tail end of a hurricane knocked out the power at both my cottage and my home and had to deal with a 50-foot tall tree crashing on my deck this morning. I am writing you on a laptop with some residual charge. I will try to post a full response, but if I fail, you know why in advance.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I apologise for not having responded as quickly as intended. I am in New Brunswick where the tail end of a hurricane knocked out the power at both my cottage and my home and had to deal with a 50-foot tall tree crashing on my deck this morning. I am writing you on a laptop with some residual charge. I will try to post a full response, but if I fail, you know why in advance.
We can continue when power is restored. I will await your response. Don't feel rushed as the AGM is starting tomorrow and my attention will be split between that an an event for some of the kids attending CYCC. Thank you for letting us know about your power situation.
I'm not going to ascribe a percentage to the impact of the FIDE leadership on chess in Canada - it varies greatly based on circumstances. As you know, when Fischer played Spassky many federations experienced and explosive 500% growth rate which does show what is possible. Under Kirsan there has been almost no growth attributable to FIDE leadership.
Originally posted by Vlad
That had more to do with Bobby Fischer than FIDE. The lone genius against the Soviet machine struck a chord in the collective imagination. What have we had recently? Toilet-gate.
Dear Vlad,
I think we're in agreement here. So, is it fair to also agree that the Fischer boom and subsequent events, such as the Kasparov vs. Deep Blue match, didn't occur as a result of FIDE?
Also, when you mention Toilet-gate, you seem to be attacking FIDE again.
I'm a little surprised that in a debate in which you are defending Kirsan, you open your comments by attacking FIDE both before and during Kirsan's term.
Originally posted by Robert Hamilton
When we did the World Chess Festival in Saint John we had 750 accredited international journalists including AP, Rueters, TASS, Sports Illustrated, the London Times, New York Times etc. Currently top FIDE events have almost no coverage and most are played in Khanty Mansiysk with no spectators present.
Originally posted by Vlad
I think part of that is having too many events and too many world championship matches. I would personally prefer a return to the three year cycle but the GM's that I have spoken to, like the present system so I am not going to criticize.
I'm having trouble differentiating between whether you are talking about Saint-John or Khanty-Mansiysk. Saint-John was one of the greatest events in North America's history.
If you were commissioner of the NBA, NHL, NFL or MLB, would you be advocating, based on your sports marketing expertise, that they cancel two out of three of their world championships? That sounds ludicrous to me and poorly conceived.
Originally posted by Robert Hamilton
Garry Kasparov has the cachet to attract substantial international sponsorship to chess and get the game back in the spotlight.
Originally posted by Vlad
I believe the height of his powers to attract sponsorship were when he had the Intel deal. That fell apart because of the fighting and back-biting and from what I have seen he has not shown that he can get along with people.
I'm surprised that you bring up the Intel deal. The Intel deal occurred because I spoke with Gary Kasparov at the Byward Market in Ottawa in 1992 when he was considering separation from FIDE. I later flew to New York and met with attorney Bob Rice, who worked for Milbank Tweed, who in turn agreed with me to create a partnership with me for establishing the PCA.
After Rice and I met, he approached the Madison Square Garden (MSG) people about attracting a new sponsor for international chess. MSG led to Intel and $8,000,000.00 was committed. The flaw in the PCA was that Rice was greedy and had nothing to do with any failure by Kasparov.
Originally posted by Robert Hamilton
He has also made it a personal mission to promote scholastic chess and currently resides a few hundred miles from the Canadian border.
Originally posted by Vlad
I can promote scholastic chess. That is an easy sell. Keeping them interested into the teen years is the hard part.
Vlad, if I'm hearing you correctly, there's not a great difference between you and thirteenth world champion Gary Kasparov in the development of international scholastic chess. More than 20 years ago, at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa, Gary and I talked about the development of scholastic chess. He knew so much about it that he even knew the colours of the pieces that appealed to each student in elementary school at each grade level.
Originally posted by Robert Hamilton
On the domestic scene voting for Kirsan means losing our largest patron of all time.
We have had several larger patrons who have passed away. Unless I am missing something I would talk to Larry Bevand about that assertion as he has actually done something for us lately and some pretty substantial somethings.
Canada has never had a patron bigger than Sid Belzberg. You people don't even understand how to accept charity properly. I don't think there's any question that Larry Bevand has done as much for Canadian chess as anyone. But Larry's not a patron. He benefits commercially, which I fully support. I was talking about Sid in the context of being the biggest patron in Canadian history.
Originally posted by Robert Hamilton
I'll not itemize everything he's done other than to say he's supported several Olympiad Teams,
Originally posted by Vlad
Several? Sid said two I seem to recall. Others told me one and one Canadian Closed. Several would imply four. He was involved for just over six years?
Canadian Championships and even provided employment for several of Canada's top players including IM Teplitsky, IM Livshitts and GM Charbonneau.
I'm given to understand the FIDE has made an undisclosed promise to the CFC if they vote for Kirsan. The value of the promise is drastically less than what Sid has already given.
Originally posted by Vlad
That seems hard to believe. How much has Sid given? I will be checking.
Sid is a very humble man who is Canada's biggest patron of all time. For you not to know this and to have to go check details is alarming. For you to publish against him is even more alarming.
I apologize for not having responded to you more quickly, but we caught the tail end of a hurricane in New Brunswick.
I think we're in agreement here. So, is it fair to also agree that the Fischer boom and subsequent events, such as the Kasparov vs. Deep Blue match, didn't occur as a result of FIDE?
Also, when you mention Toilet-gate, you seem to be attacking FIDE again.
I would say I am attacking Garry's man in Europe. Vladimir Kramnik is an intelligent and thoughtful chessplayer, a credit to chess. It was quite disgraceful what Topalov and his team tried to do to him. That was not Kirsan's doing. It was the doing of someone who is supporting Kasparov.
I'm having trouble differentiating between whether you are talking about Saint-John or Khanty-Mansiysk.
Khanty-Mansiysk.
I'm surprised that you bring up the Intel deal. The Intel deal occurred because I spoke with Gary Kasparov at the Byward Market in Ottawa in 1992 when he was considering separation from FIDE. I later flew to New York and met with attorney Bob Rice, who worked for Milbank Tweed, who in turn agreed with me to create a partnership with me for establishing the PCA.
It sounds like you had more to do with it than Gary.
After Rice and I met, he approached the Madison Square Garden (MSG) people about attracting a new sponsor for international chess. MSG led to Intel and $8,000,000.00 was committed. The flaw in the PCA was that Rice was greedy and had nothing to do with any failure by Kasparov.
Nonetheless things fell apart because of all the fighting between Garry and FIDE (at least that's what Garry said happened).
Vlad, if I'm hearing you correctly, there's not a great difference between you and thirteenth world champion Gary Kasparov in the development of international scholastic chess. More than 20 years ago, at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa, Gary and I talked about the development of scholastic chess. He knew so much about it that he even knew the colours of the pieces that appealed to each student in elementary school at each grade level.
Canada has never had a patron bigger than Sid Belzberg. You people don't even understand how to accept charity properly.
No charity was on offer. I don't know how to accept abuse and Sid was offering plenty of that.
I don't think there's any question that Larry Bevand has done as much for Canadian chess as anyone. But Larry's not a patron.
He's given more than Sid Belzberg to the CFC over the last eight years.
He benefits commercially, which I fully support. I was talking about Sid in the context of being the biggest patron in Canadian history.
He is certainly the biggest something in Canadian chess history.
Sid is a very humble man who is Canada's biggest patron of all time. For you not to know this and to have to go check details is alarming. For you to publish against him is even more alarming.
He doesn't seem very humble to me. He seems very self entitled and given to arguments lacking in logic.
I apologize for not having responded to you more quickly, but we caught the tail end of a hurricane in New Brunswick.
Regards,
Robert
No apologies necessary.
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Monday, 7th July, 2014, 07:43 PM.
I can't tell you how extraordinarily disappointed I am in you. Not only do you pose as someone who understands international chess, but you have the temerity to argue with me and Sid Belzberg about it.
You didn't have the decency to follow and answer one thread of my dialogue as any honest debater would. I've organized international chess events and raised millions of dollars for chess. You haven't raised one slender dime (to my knowledge). In fact, you have most vociferously attacked the biggest patron in Canadian history with abject lies and complete untruths. If this is your notion of how to raise funds for chess, Sid and I completely disagree and would be astounded if the governors agreed with you.
As a puppet president, most of what you say is arcane. After all this embarassment, if the governors choose to crucify their largest patron and silence the voice of people who have raised millions of dollars, they will be doing an absolute disservice to chess in Canada.
I would prefer, for once, if you were intellectually honest. The governors meet tomorrow. Will you please itemize what Sid Belzberg and I have done for chess in Canada and compare it to your own record.
I can't tell you how extraordinarily disappointed I am in you. Not only do you pose as someone who understands international chess, but you have the temerity to argue with me and Sid Belzberg about it.
The problem with the Kasparov campaign from day one is this absurd idea that the CFC executive were not entitled to make its own decision and was required to make the obvious choice. We did make the obvious choice and there has been wailing and the gnashing of teeth ever since.
My next questions to Robert would have been:
Why should GK be rewarded with the top position in FIDE after all of his attempts to destroy it? If his access to corporate wealth is so powerful, why could he not find the money for his own match with Shirov? His match with Ponomariov, pursuant to the Prague (reunification) agreement also failed to land sponsorship. This created the bottleneck in the World Championship cycle which will finally be cleared up in November of this year. The million dollar election lawsuit of 2010, which FIDE won, cost all member Federations.
All of this might be forgiven if GK was a changed man, but his campaign suggests otherwise.
My reference to temerity was in the context of experience with international chess.
Regarding you last question.... don't forget that Kirsan had been trying to move the rights for elite international events into private entities controlled by him for years (:
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