CFC membership updates

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

If the organizers were to stop collecting membership, I would predict a huge drop in CFC membership...

I think the solution is easy : if organizers give you trouble like this, simply tell them the next time their tournament will only be rated once all the memberships are received... And if the tournament get rated way too late because of this, simply redirect the players' complains to the organizer. Honestly, if an organizer was to make me wait 2 months for the rating because of memberships (it's extremely easy to collect them!), I would not participate again in a tournament organized by him/her. I'm sure they would get the lesson.

The above suggestion would punish (in the form of delayed ratings) all entrants in a tournament because of a delinquent organizer.

The real 'culprit' here is the person paying membership at the tournament. Not that that is a terrible thing to do, since sometimes you simply don't know if you can attend until the last moment. But shouldn't the privilege of paying membership at the tournament come with a small price tag?

The CFC could add a 4% surcharge for those entering at the tournament, and this would (mostly) pay for the use of PayPal or some other online payment service by the CFC. So the late entrant would need to either have or to set up a PayPal (or some other service) account linked to either their bank account or credit card, and they pay online via that account. This would require that the site have secure internet available, or if that's not possible, the tournament flyer should advise entrants to pay up online from their home before coming to the event, and bring a printed receipt from the service being used. The CFC website would have to maintain a membership payment page, which would add the surcharge for using the service.

With this in place, the money goes to the CFC without the organizer having to do anything. It's very important to make organizing events as stress-free as possible.

Would people revolt and tournament entries decline? Maybe a small amount, but not as much as if organizers didn't allow paying memberships at the tournament at all. Aren't major tournaments (World Open etc.) already charging a premium for entering a tournament on the start day of the event? That means people are already used to paying for the privilege.

Bob Gillanders, has this idea been considered by the CFC?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC membership updates

I find the suggestion simply bizarre. If chasing down the membership for one tournament causes the office so much grief, imagine how much grief the cfc office will have chasing down the membership for every tournament. And as the tournament is already over, and the office is not dealing with the offenders in person, the office will have no leverage in actually collecting.

I suppose you can require organizers to turn away new players with cash in their hands at the door...after all, who needs new members?

I don't think the player should lose when he pays his membership at an event which ends up being rated by the CFC.

[Fred Harvey]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

"With this in place, the money goes to the CFC without the organizer having to do anything. It's very important to make organizing events as stress-free as possible."

Well done that man!

So simple is organizing. So complicated is the chess mind, apparently, which seems to have difficulty with the concept of simplicity! Someone wants to join the CFC to play tournaments, then join the CFC, without dragging everyone else into it. Dammit, I've just complicated the concept.....sorry!

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

Bob Gillanders, has this idea been considered by the CFC?

Paul, we already have in place an effective process for members to pay their memberships directly to the CFC office. You go to the CFC website, store, drop down menu, “membership fees”. Follow the directions and pay with credit card or paypal. This method is becoming more popular, and new fields have been added recently for member #’s etc. Members receive an email confirmation and the website is updated the following wednesday. Members can use the email confirmation as proof of payment.

Most organizers are diligent and responsible when checking, collecting, and remitting memberships to the office. Having said that, the start of a tournament can be a very hectic time, collecting memberships and entry fees, getting that first round started in a reasonable time, the occasional membership renewal is easy to miss. My own track record is far from spotless, so I do understand. I am happy to work with organizers to follow up on deficiencies. In this instance however, I do not feel the organizers have displayed the prerequisite due diligence.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

I think the solution is easy : if organizers give you trouble like this, simply tell them the next time their tournament will only be rated once all the memberships are received...

Felix, the next tournament at Hart House (Reading Week) was rated promptly due to the goodwill earned by Alex Ferreira who did a proper membership report and paid promptly by credit card. Thank you Alex.

The next tournament? the jury is out, verdict is dependant upon the outcome here.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

Paul, we already have in place an effective process for members to pay their memberships directly to the CFC office. You go to the CFC website, store, drop down menu, “membership fees”. Follow the directions and pay with credit card or paypal. This method is becoming more popular, and new fields have been added recently for member #’s etc. Members receive an email confirmation and the website is updated the following wednesday. Members can use the email confirmation as proof of payment.

Most organizers are diligent and responsible when checking, collecting, and remitting memberships to the office. Having said that, the start of a tournament can be a very hectic time, collecting memberships and entry fees, getting that first round started in a reasonable time, the occasional membership renewal is easy to miss. My own track record is far from spotless, so I do understand. I am happy to work with organizers to follow up on deficiencies. In this instance however, I do not feel the organizers have displayed the prerequisite due diligence.

So if you already have that in place, it seems what needs to be done is to make online payment of membership via PayPal a matter of policy in the case of waiting until the day of a tournament to join or renew. That is, organizers may not accept cash or other payment at the site for MEMBERSHIPS, the only thing accepted for updating memberships is the email confirmation as proof of payment. Maybe the website handles this by issuing a unique code to each member paying this way, and the organizer can check online to see that the receipt code matches a payment made that day by that member. The only thing I'm assuming is that organizers do have internet access at all events, is that generally true?

And then organizers are never remitting memberships to the office. All required membership payments are handled via PayPal. The onus is on the CFC post-event to make sure no entrants were in the event without a paid-up membership (or tournament membership)... but no faking should be possible since no one could give a valid payment code without actually paying... well, without hacking that is, and the penalty for being caught would be suspension of membership.

Someone would likely have to add that payment code generation and storage to the website.

[Kai G. Gauer]

Re: CFC membership updates

After a round or so after the first round of a Toronto-area tournament, I checked to see whether there were any OCA, GTCL or SWOCL tables set up, not crowded around the first-round registration room at the last moment. The inquiry was to see whether any association directors/officers were able to process any fees for another (buses coming in sometimes make for a quick transit sprint when arriving from another locale) in their weekend series as a credit to the next entry - but did get turned down quickly.

Not sure if that would be a complicating factor, or whether organizers would simply accept a surplus as a donation (by the way, thanks to the many who <do> donate a little extra to the organizers when the registration line needs to keep moving, and providing change is not an issue to the player...) to a prize fund or club by default.

I'm lucky that I solved the problem of purchasing a life membership a long time ago so as to not have to worry about when or whether to renew a membership for a certain month of a year, and to see whether the month would change if players aren't able to play the whole part of the season at all times, for different years. Some club members might only want to play in spring one year, then wait 30 months and wants to renew with a different renewal cycle.

[Alex Ferreira]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

Hello,


In regards to the Canadian Universities Championship, the membership collection was definitely a mess, unlike other events generally organized by Hart House or University of Toronto. I won't get into that here, but one annoying reality we deal with is the painful time delays once things go through Hart House Accounts when we don't manually reverse a few screws in advance. Neither myself nor the arbiter were involved in this process for this tournament and the organizing body took the 'Hart House recommended way' of doing things which is far more painful.


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As for the topic of discussion, in regards to collection of fees, is worthy of debate. Felix made an interesting point... don't rate the tournament, CFC will wash its hands for a while putting the pressure on the organizer, at least for a while. A player will likely assume that the files were not submitted and contact the organizer before the CFC office. On the other hand, collecting CFC memberships is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS! "I am expired? let me bring money tomorrow?" -- "Oh I renewed at the last tournament, was it not updated yet?" -- "I renewed at X club where we play once a week, tournament will finish in a month, I guess it'll be submitted then" -- "Oh sorry, I'll renew online when I get home" ... and so on and so forth. An argument can definitely be made that the organizer is doing the CFC a favour in collecting and processing membership fees on its behalf. I think most importantly is... there is too much good faith taking place, by CFC, by many organizers, some abuse or discrepancies by some players and some organizers, at times the CFC is not perfect either.

This may seem like a stupid question, and it has been discussed before but I'll ask it again... why don't we treat memberships like rating fees? Rating fees are now $3.00 per player (plus HST) per tournament. Make it $5? Make it $10? One can easily make the argument that membership is paid by players with the sole purpose of playing in rated tournaments, at least for 95-99% of the players. This would avoid a ridiculous amount of hassle we go through all the time. In other words... make it a hidden fee like the $3.00 fee. We can process the FIDE Fees ($2.20 + HST) separately when applicable, the way we do now, but for CFC...?
And why not? Because of LIFE Members? There are a few active ones, who shouldn't be shafted, don't know what the solution for those would be, but they are definitely a very small minority.

Putting this in practice would arguably force organizers to jack up the entry fees by $5 or $10 to process the additional 'hidden, membership' fees, but people would no longer have to deal with renewing memberships. Also the prize fund returned would then be a 'lower percentage' I suppose, but in the end this should all balance relatively easy after a couple of years or trial and error as we would adjust to the idea.

It's also worth adding that, paying an additional $48 or $20 on top of an entry fee at a tournament deters some players from even participating.


Alex Ferreira

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

collecting CFC memberships is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS!

For the club we decided to be mean and go with "no CFC membership - no game", and you do on your own at chess.ca. There are much more interesting things to do than chasing/collecting CFC memberships. The club still has an affiliation with the CFC but probably it will be not extended anymore.
During the Open we collected fees, and I think we still have a good track submitting them to the CFC :)

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

This may seem like a stupid question, and it has been discussed before but I'll ask it again... why don't we treat memberships like rating fees? Rating fees are now $3.00 per player (plus HST) per tournament. Make it $5? Make it $10?

Not a stupid question. It was debated at length a few years ago. I believe you and Stuart Brammall argued to eliminate membership dues by increasing rating fees to $8(?). I argued against it, in favour of the status quo membership/rating fee revenue mix. Perhaps I was wrong. :) Worthy of further debate!

[Fred Harvey]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

For the club we decided to be mean and go with "no CFC membership - no game", and you do on your own at chess.ca. There are much more interesting things to do than chasing/collecting CFC memberships. The club still has an affiliation with the CFC but probably it will be not extended anymore.
During the Open we collected fees, and I think we still have a good track submitting them to the CFC :)

Why did you think it was "mean" to keep it simple? Apparently the CFC office is well set-up to issue memberships quite painlessly. Far too much "what-ifs",
"perhapses", and gnashing of gums.

[John Brown]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

I just mail a cheque to the CFC for my membership. I photocopy it as well. They usually send me a receipt by email. Of course I keep track of my CFC expiry date.
How many others do?

I think if organizers collect CFC memberships then the player should insist on a receipt.

If organizers are not sending the fees in on time then I would just put that organizer on a Black List and notify the members that if you play in that organizer's tournament you should either have an updated CFC membership or just boycott that organizer's tournaments until he gets an okay from the CFC to run tournaments again.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

Why did you think it was "mean" to keep it simple?

Players get used to helpers, and sometimes forget to appreciate that. When you stop, the sky almost starts to fall :)

Apparently the CFC office is well set-up to issue memberships quite painlessly.

Are you a fake person? Seems that chess.ca is not that painless to have Fred Harvey in its database LOL

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Re : Re: CFC membership updates

Felix, the next tournament at Hart House (Reading Week) was rated promptly due to the goodwill earned by Alex Ferreira who did a proper membership report and paid promptly by credit card. Thank you Alex.

The next tournament? the jury is out, verdict is dependant upon the outcome here.

Do new organizers receive a package from the CFC explaining how to submit a crosstable for rating and how to fill in a membership report (with example of the details)? It's alot for somebody not used to it.