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Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
From Paul MacDonald:
We recently had an interesting situation occur during an Interschools Tournament. The time control of the game was 15 minutes no increment.
A player (PLAYER A) picks up their queen on their move and whilst doing so runs out of time, says "oh, I lost on time" puts their queen down on the board (in a legal move) and then says "look, that is checkmate - do I win?"
The player (PLAYER A) had indeed put the queen on a square that mated their opponent (PLAYER B).
It should be noted PLAYER B did not claim a win on time at any stage.
I would appreciate feedback on this on what the correct decision should be.
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
I'm no arbiter, but my understanding is that a checkmate on the board supersede a fallen flag. That is, if the checkmate happens before the opponent claims a win on time.
So in that case, the checkmate would stand because player B didn't claim a win on time?
I'm no arbiter, but my understanding is that a checkmate on the board supersede a fallen flag. That is, if the checkmate happens before the opponent claims a win on time.
So in that case, the checkmate would stand because player B didn't claim a win on time?
Also not an IA but the move was not completed... (Player A was still holding the Queen when he even announced he had run out of time - not a smart idea)
Since time ran out before the move was completed, Player A loses on time, IMHO
[perhaps an interesting question in the case where the Queen was placed on the square and the player's hand let go and THEN the clock ran out... is that different?]
Also not an IA but the move was not completed... (Player A was still holding the Queen when he even announced he had run out of time - not a smart idea)
Since time ran out before the move was completed, Player A loses on time, IMHO
[perhaps an interesting question in the case where the Queen was placed on the square and the player's hand let go and THEN the clock ran out... is that different?]
Well, if player A just says he ran out of time (without resigning), does that count? If so, I agree with your conclusion. But I have another question: who exactly can call a fallen flag?
What happens if a bystander calls the fallen flag?
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
FIDE Competition Rules
6.8
A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
This one is a great classic.
The flag falls at the moment of the claim or at the moment that the arbiter see the flag down, whichever comes first. Apart from that, we need to know the definition of move made
Originally posted by FIDE Laws of Chess
4.7
When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, a piece has been released on a square, it cannot be moved to another square on this move. The move is considered to have been made in the case of:
a. capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand.
b. castling, when the player's hand has released the rook on the square previously crossed by the king. When the player has released the king from his hand, the move is not yet made, but the player no longer has the right to make any move other than castling on that side, if this is legal. If castling on this side is illegal, the player must make another legal move with his king (which may include castling with the other rook). If the king has no legal move, the player is free to make any legal move.
c. promotion, when the player's hand has released the new piece on the square of promotion and the pawn has been removed from the board.
If the checkmating move have been made before the flag falls, then the mate will stands. If the checkmating move has not been made before the flag fall , the game is over. It is lost on time unless the opponent cannot mate with any series of legal move.
If it is unclear which of the two events came first, then the checkmate will stand. There ar two good reasons for this decision: checkmating is the fundamental objective of the game of chess whereas winning on time in not considered winning by normal means. The second reason, which is more compelling, is that each player has the burden of proof for the claims that he has made. It is rather easy for the player who has checkmated to replay the game with his scoresheet in order to demonstrate that the checkmating move was legal and that the position on the chessboard is the real position of the game. The player who wants to prove that the flag fell first has only his word to back his claim.
Priority always goes to the mate in all unclear cases. Those cases are extremely rare in standard play chess but long ago, in a single day as the Chief Arbiter of the Quebec Rapid Championship, I had to face multiple claims of this nature.
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
Hehe Ok I got really lucky. I am happy to use my real name once Larry sorts it out. FYI My name is Paul Macdonald from Chess Power residing in Auckland, New Zealand. And no, I am not a Grandmaster - just an aspiration. Hopefully I get a conclusion on the arbiter decision before the thread goes into neverland.
Larry: Thanks for clarifying that Paul. Please re-register using your real name.
FIDE Competition Rules
6.8
A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
From Paul MacDonald:
An important note on the incident - the Arbiter was not present during the incident and was only present after PLAYER A had placed the queen on the board.
The flag falls at the moment of the claim or at the moment that the arbiter see the flag down, whichever comes first. Apart from that, we need to know the definition of move made
If the checkmating move have been made before the flag falls, then the mate will stands. If the checkmating move has not been made before the flag fall , the game is over. It is lost on time unless the opponent cannot mate with any series of legal move.
If it is unclear which of the two events came first, then the checkmate will stand. There ar two good reasons for this decision: checkmating is the fundamental objective of the game of chess whereas winning on time in not considered winning by normal means. The second reason, which is more compelling, is that each player has the burden of proof for the claims that he has made. It is rather easy for the player who has checkmated to replay the game with his scoresheet in order to demonstrate that the checkmating move was legal and that the position on the chessboard is the real position of the game. The player who wants to prove that the flag fell first has only his word to back his claim.
Priority always goes to the mate in all unclear cases. Those cases are extremely rare in standard play chess but long ago, in a single day as the Chief Arbiter of the Quebec Rapid Championship, I had to face multiple claims of this nature.
From Paul Macdonald:
Ok, well in this case it is clear the flag fell before the player made the queen move. But the point is PLAYER B did not claim a win on time as per the FIDE Rapid play rules. So is the time issue relevant? Or did the fact that PLAYER A say "Oh, I lost on time" become tantamount to a resignation?
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your contribution. As you have figured out by now aliases are not permitted on this site. Please re-register using your real name. We will no longer allow further posts under your alias.
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
Did player A pick the queen up before the flag fell?If the flag fell before player A
touched the queen,I would think player A lost on time.If player A even touched
the queen before the flag fell and could show the square that the queen was going
on,I would consider that player A won.
FIDE Competition Rules
6.8
A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
Interesting wording - can a player call his own flag, and thus the game is officially over ? I observe that (players in hopeless losing positions telling their opponent that their own flag has fallen) frequently.
A player (PLAYER A) picks up their queen on their move and whilst doing so runs out of time, says "oh, I lost on time" puts their queen down on the board (in a legal move) and then says "look, that is checkmate - do I win?"
There is a little subtlety in the Laws of Chess. A player can call his own flag.
Originally posted by Laws of Chess
6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
Either player can call a flag down, his own or his opponent's flag. The "oh, I lost on time" can only be interpreted as player A calling his own flag. After that, player A has lost unless his opponent cannot checkmate him with a series of legal moves.
I do not like USCF rules, but they have a section on player calling his own flag that makes it clearer that this action is possible.
This is the correct ruling if the rapidplay tournament was properly supervised. In my previous comments, I have always assumed that the tournament was properly supervised.
If the tournament wasn't properly supervised, there is a catch.
Originally posted by FIDE Laws of Chess
A.4.c To claim a win on time, the claimant must stop the chessclock and notify the arbiter. For the claim to be successful, the claimant must have time remaining on his own clock after the chessclock has been stopped. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the claimant cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.
In unsupervised rapidplay, calling your own flag has no effect, in order to win on time , your opponent must stop the clock and there must be time remaining on his side of the clock. To makes things more complex, many chessclocks actually automatically stop both clocks when the first flag falls. The claimant cannot stop the clock because it is already stopped. Nevertheless, the claimant still has to notify the arbiter.
There is an important grey box over A.5 in the Arbiters' manual: the arbiter has the power to call a flag in rapidplay. It my not be written, but in the previous version of the Laws of Chess, the arbiter was explicitly forbidden from calling a single flag down.
The mate will prevail if no arbiter has seen the flag fall. The opponent did not claim the win in the proper manner. There is no indication that player B has made any attempt to communicate with the arbiter.
Re: Delivering Checkmate during Flag-fall IA Comments?
Interschool tournament in Montreal always use the rules of standard play chess even if the time control is actually rapidplay. The tournament is organized by the Quebec Network of Scholastic Sports which uses a modified version of the normal rules.
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