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The Bayview Club took your vision forward and created conditions perfect for adult players who could avoid lower rated juniors
I was to clarify - my vision is not to get rid of juniors in open chess events, or anything close to it. Juniors bring good things to the table (new opponents, basic numbers of players, often times a challenging game). They bring negatives too. My "vision" is just that they do not get a discount on membership, nothing else.
As for Larry's idea - unfortunately, as long as there is a revolving door in CFC leadership, you as a business will never be able to make a long standing partnership with them. I wish it was different.
I would love to develop a program at Chess'n Math for kids at a higher level. I have been burned in the past by the CFC. I have many stories but no one wants to live in the past. There is an idea that was pitched to me recently which I really like. Associate ourselves with a chess school in Europe and have exchanges etc. Send kids there, have their kids come here, exchange instructors, etc. The CMA has 20 full time dedicated staff. We are financially sound and we want to continue to make a significant contribution to chess in Canada. We need a project that will allow Canadian youngsters to benefit from what we can offer. Bottom line: Money is not the issue. Give us a constructive project that can not be sabotaged...and I am sure we will run with it!
In the history of chess in Canada, there has never been a chess organization as large and having touched as many young lives as the CMA...while I am proud of what we have accomplished...I know there is a lot more work to do. and I am open to new projects that will make a difference.
The post is only flawed if you believe that an increase in the price of junior memberships will make those juniors quit. I don't believe that to be true - speaking as a parent myself, chess is one of the least costly extracurricular activities a child can engage in.
And I would note - the post in question discussed issues with adult membership stats. I could just as easily argue based on my experience talking to many adult members that the "energy" brought to events by juniors turns off many adults, as does the idea of losing to players 20+ years younger (note - I don't feel this way, but I do believe there is a not insignificant number of adult members who do).
I've always been on board for the CFC to get completely out of junior chess. It would mean juniors and their families can avoid the inevitable headaches from dealing with a mediocre organization rife with special interest groups and politically inclined people. The CFC is never willing to take that step. They want to control everything, even when they lack the resources to run the events or projects properly.
Sure, there are disgruntled adult players who hate being around kids. My observation is many of them won't play anyways. The Bayview Club took your vision forward and created conditions perfect for adult players who could avoid lower rated juniors ( one of the strange aspects for some disgruntled types is they focus on ratings not age or table manners ). Rating ceilings discouraged aspiring masters from playing at all. Did it work ? No. The adult members who asked for the changes still didn't support the events in lasting numbers. Youth players gradually lost interest in supporting the club. My guess as well is, certain players added a level of human interest level beyond their skills that attracted other players ( whether it be their peers or just interested adult players ). Losing said players has a larger impact then most. Yet no effort at all was made to consider those player's experience at any point.
I would think some really good junior events has some value. Who runs them is less important then the quality of event, and there is a built in problem that youth players who excel need competition and the junior pool can be less concentrated. The CMA is good for very young players but rarely properly addresses longer time controls well. I guess there isn't enough money in it for them. I'm not sure what young kids who start dominating local CMA events are supposed to do. We decided to see where the CFC world would take it, and in hindsight I wish we'd passed entirely.
However, all that being said, I'd like to point out that membership fees, program details, politics are all secondary in importance to one basic premise. If an organizer or federation deems a player at a young age suitable for an event, then respect their right to be there and consider their experiences and dreams. They may be young, but skills come quick in chess. You must accommodate for their experience, protect their rights.; if you can't do it, don't have them at the events.
Last edited by Duncan Smith; Monday, 11th January, 2016, 05:44 PM.
FIDE expenses are not being glossed over as they are significant but we also receive benefits from being a part of FIDE. We have to be part of an international chess body recognized by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in order to be recognized by the Canadian Olympic Committee. FIDE is that international chess body which is recognized by the IOC. If we ever want to raise significant funds from corporations being recognized by the IOC and COC is very helpful.
How long has the CFC had this recognition and what benefit has it provided or what benefit is it tangibly and clearly expected to provide? Vague feel good statements are of little use.
In order to be part of FIDE we need to fund them consistent with our participation. We really are not in a position to demand a special deal from FIDE. If there are things we don't like about FIDE, the best way forward is trying to change the system from within. Most of the individuals involved in FIDE are not unlike most of the individuals involved in the CFC. They are volunteers who do not make money from their involvement in chess.
I'm also surprised there hasn't been any comments on my thoughts about the FIDE vs non FIDE membership. FIDE expenses are a very substantial part of the CFC expenses per year that are just being glossed over.
While it is true that FIDE membership is something that only directly affects a fraction of the membership, I think it is understood that a function of a national organization is to do what is necessary to be part of the worldwide scene. And if the many are paying for a benefit for the few, that is not conceptually different from say using entry fees to fund prize money in tournaments for which most people will not have a realistic shot at the top prize - something which seems to be well accepted (although there are those who claim that the few don't get enough or object to smaller prizes for the many).
While conceptually that is acceptable, it is complicated by the view that FIDE itself is not the most reputable of organizations and is not a completely acceptable partner. And that conceptual framework does not address just how much is appropriate to fund FIDE.
FIDE also has a strong ratings brand which is coveted by many, notwithstanding that a new number by a different organization is not more meaningful and just results in shipping money to that other organization. FIDE is of course trying to extend it's reach on this with a rating floor that goes down to 1000 and has in the past floated ideas of individual annual FIDE memberships in order to extract more money. So, the number of people who are directly affected by a relationship with FIDE is continually expanding. Something like that would be an existential challenge for the CFC and it is a bit odd that that is not discussed more often.
The CFC is the governing body for chess in Canada. We are a founding voting member of FIDE which is the world chess body recognized by the IOC. While my duty is to represent the CFC it is also to take into account the objectives of the CFC and also the non-profit status of the CFC. The CFC is primarily interested in encouraging the study and playing of chess and specifically tournament chess. We also cooperate with FIDE and the provincial associations to further our objectives. The best interest of the CFC does not include maximizing the funds which we extract from everyone that crosses our path. We are a non-profit that relies on a network of volunteers and one or two paid individuals in order to deliver our services.
The idea that we should relinquish our interest in junior chess would not be consistent with our objectives.
I just want to clarify this - I don't think they should be kept out; I personally have no issues with playing juniors and have no feeling positive or negative when paired to play one. I just don't think they should be given a discount.
To the question re CYCC$250 - I have a lot of trouble believing there are parents out there who will pay $250, but not $260 for their child to participate in CYCC. The CFC is throwing away money that could be gotten from those players.
I'm also surprised there hasn't been any comments on my thoughts about the FIDE vs non FIDE membership. FIDE expenses are a very substantial part of the CFC expenses per year that are just being glossed over.
FIDE expenses are not being glossed over as they are significant but we also receive benefits from being a part of FIDE. We have to be part of an international chess body recognized by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in order to be recognized by the Canadian Olympic Committee. FIDE is that international chess body which is recognized by the IOC. If we ever want to raise significant funds from corporations being recognized by the IOC and COC is very helpful.
I understand David Ottosen's point about adults not liking to play juniors. I'm one of them. John Coleman (who has run a LOT of junior events) recently complained about some of those reasons and was treated quite horribly by some posters here. But on what grounds would you keep juniors out of events they qualify to play in?
I just want to clarify this - I don't think they should be kept out; I personally have no issues with playing juniors and have no feeling positive or negative when paired to play one. I just don't think they should be given a discount.
To the question re CYCC$250 - I have a lot of trouble believing there are parents out there who will pay $250, but not $260 for their child to participate in CYCC. The CFC is throwing away money that could be gotten from those players.
I'm also surprised there hasn't been any comments on my thoughts about the FIDE vs non FIDE membership. FIDE expenses are a very substantial part of the CFC expenses per year that are just being glossed over.
Anyone who has never played in a slow CFC or FQE event has no business playing in a CYCC, imo. They are national championships and shouldn't be watered down with players who barely know how to play.
As a CYCC player I agree. I remember two years ago in a CYCC seeing I think 4 games end in the first ten minutes because of back fired three moves attempts (in the U14 section!!!!!). Instead of allowing the qualifier to just be 50% in a quick chess tournament, change it to 50% in a slow tournament.
Even this past CYCC, I think it was something like 20-ish players who had no slow rating (I also recall they were paired under their active ratings as well; not listed as unrated). There hasn't been much of a commitment towards quality so far and highly doubt there ever will be.
Anyone who has never played in a slow CFC or FQE event has no business playing in a CYCC, imo. They are national championships and shouldn't be watered down with players who barely know how to play.
When it's all about money, anything can be tolerated that brings in money. Vlad's job, as he so aptly described in another thread, is to do whatever is best for the CFC, not for chess in Canada. So I would recommend forgetting about the 'quality' of national championships and just look at the bottom line.
Vlad is even linking tournament entry fees to annual membership fees (for juniors only, since that helps his case); a Machiavellian plot indeed but he was called out on it by Roger Patterson and David Ottosen. Even here on Chesstalk one cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
There are a number of players who only join the CFC in order to play in CYCC.
Anyone who has never played in a slow CFC or FQE event has no business playing in a CYCC, imo. They are national championships and shouldn't be watered down with players who barely know how to play.
I mean what are you saying when you say juniors are paying nearly $250 membership? I honestly didn't understand what you mean there.
The cost of CYCC is $225 ($75 to the organizer, $150 to the youth fund). A junior membership is $24.00 vs. $36.00 for an adult membership. There are a number of players who only join the CFC in order to play in CYCC. In addition there are provincial fees in most jurisdictions. Also on the rating fees many of the junior tournaments are YCC's where the fee per player is $0.50 rating fee and $2.50 to the youth fund. If a junior plays in a regular tournament they pay the regular rating fee at least indirectly through the organizer.
Mike England of PEI said to me over a decade ago, the difference between the CMA and the CFC is that the CFC keeps changing direction...Actually he put it in sailing terms but that was the jist of his comment :)
At my cottage I have a book which defines sailing as (paraphrasing): "going nowhere at high expense while getting very wet".
Mike England of PEI said to me over a decade ago, the difference between the CMA and the CFC is that the CFC keeps changing direction...Actually he put it in sailing terms but that was the jist of his comment :)
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