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I don't think it's a "tragedy" when a player loses on time. That's part of the game. Regarding professional sport and time, I doubt the television stations would wait an hour until a pro hockey team showed up nor would the paying spectators be impressed. The league would likely find a movie like Bambi takes their place.
Are the same players who whine when a TD posts the first round half an hour late the same ones who are complaining about themselves having to be punctual?
I still think if a players wants a higher rating they should play better. Win more games. However, you do make an interesting point regarding like ratings in chess. I don't doubt you would find a difference between a 2600 rated player in CC and OTB. Although, FIDE extended an invitation to the ICCF to field a team in the Olympiad 3 years ago. After the ICCF submitted the team players names, which was after FIDE knew ICCF accepted the invitation, FIDE quickly withdrew the invitation.
Still, due to considerations like the amount of time it takes to play a game and players seeming to gravitate to certain events where they are mostly playing amongst themselves as opposed to the entire rating pool, I doubt all the 2600 rated CC players are equal in playing strength. Players who participate mainly on high boards in Olympiads would be unliikely to be the same strength as players who attained 2600 by playing in minor events, although they might be.
By the way, I'll be playing board 5 in the upcoming Correspondence Olympiad. In CC 6 boards play and then there are the reserve players who take over in the event one of the 6 can't carry on. I wasn't demoted. My game is not what it was and my age is catching up. I asked for a lower board and hope I can make a contribution there instead of playing a higher board and being a drag on the team.
who are complaining about themselves having to be punctual?
If TD wants to implement a zero-sec rule, (s)he must consider that for Open it might not work at all. Players would be scared to register because they could not be on time.
Yes, I was late a lot of times but less than one hour. And only once my opponent has not came. Was I happy? Yes, because the night was spent playing cards :D
Yes, I was late a lot of times but less than one hour. And only once my opponent has not came. Was I happy? Yes, because the night was spent playing cards :D
I have taken away correspondence chess games from so many players, on time infractions over the years, that I forget them all and the number of games involved.
The last one, before I retired from tournament directing, was one of the best.
One player, in a large event, was taking many special leaves and many of the moves to him were getting lost in the mail. Of course, I always beleive the reasons. He wrote me a letter and told me he wanted special leave to play in an over the board event, months in the future, and gave me the dates. I wrote this down, like I did whenever a player asked for special leave, and told him to take the few week. When the date arrived I received a letter telling me he was in the hospital and his leg was "in plaster". The months passed and his 10 opponents were complaining that he did not inform them and had heard nothing.
I wrote the player and waited 6 weeks. Mail to Russia can take a long time. No reply. I wrote again and 9 weeks passed. Still no reply. Around 5 months had passed and he had not written his opponents or replied to me.
So, I forfeited all his games and wrote and told him. Within 3 weeks a registered letter came from him complaining about my taking away the games. After he had received my notification he sent registered moves to all his opponents but it was too late. His letter to me was very insulting so I didn't reply but I registered his loses for rating.
After two or three months passed I received an enquiry from Canada Post asking about his registered letter to which I hadn't replied. They wanted me to sign something that I had received it. The papers were in French and Russian. Of course, being English speaking in Ontario, I could not fully understand what the forms stated so I didn't reply to that either.
fwiw, I wrote at length about the Zero Forfeit issue in Mig's blog
I suppose opinions vary.
I can see giving the hour in the days when a player was allowed 2 hour to make 40 moves. In these days of 90 minutes for 40 moves it doesn't make that much sense to me.
I don't have the stats to know how many players who are 45 or more minutes late for a game go on to lose the game. I'd guess, amongst players of relatively equal playing strength, the player with the shorter amount of time loses disproportionately to what the expectation of the elo ratings would suggest. That would tend to skew the ratings. The zero lateness rule is better because the game is lost and presumably not rated.
I would guess some players successfully use lateness for psychological reasons against weaker players and FIDE decided to put a stop to it.
Lateness is not helpful for the game in an age where chess would like TV coverage. A player sitting an hour waiting for his opponent just doesn't cut it. Probably not really a consideration in Canada where there are more knitters than chess players.
Lateness is not helpful for the game in an age where chess would like TV coverage.
I wonder how a non-played game following 5 seconds of lateness helps anything. Being late in chess already carries its own penalty: less time on the clock. But if allowing being late up to an hour may be too much, why not reduce it up to a point that is reasonable and wont prevent games to be played, which is by far the most important thing. It might be also be reasonable to impose financial penalties for regular offenders, but to default people is utterly counter productive. It is just the type of actions that FIDE's dictatorship has imposed on chess for too long: silly solutions to non-existant or at best minor problems and aggravations of serious problems really affecting FIDE's credibility.
the game in an age where chess would like TV coverage.
Why do you need TV? Internet coverage are much more better.
The strict 0-lateness rule is only satisfied for matches, where players could be demanded to come in advance by 5-10 minutes and an arbiter starts the game in time with both players.
Even in the small RR tournaments the arbiter may announce several times that games starts in 10-5-1-start. However, for the large weekend swiss it might get a disaster.
But if allowing being late up to an hour may be too much, why not reduce it up to a point that is reasonable and wont prevent games to be played, which is by far the most important thing. It might be also be reasonable to impose financial penalties for regular offenders, but to default people is utterly counter productive. It is just the type of actions that FIDE's dictatorship has imposed on chess for too long: silly solutions to non-existant or at best minor problems and aggravations of serious problems really affecting FIDE's credibility.
I can see allowing a player to be up to a half hour late if the time for the first 40 moves is 90 minutes. When a time is allowed it probably doesn't matter if those who are late are regular offenders or first time offenders. All any player has to do is arrive in the time allowed by the rule.
With employees in a company, coming to work late too many times often results in dismissal, unless the employees father owns the company. :)
With chess, the organizers have to work with the players they have. Often rules are a compromise which allows an organization to lose the fewest players. I don't know if the problem has become so annoying for the majority of the players the member nations requested this. If Canada voted on this, how did we vote? For or against the allowing players to be late?
Hi colleagues, my personal opinion on this issue is plain simple, the new FIDE rule is ridiculous, losing a game for being late? I wonder what were they thinking? of all changes we can make to improve chess these days, thats the best they can come up with? There are a million reasons a player can be late for a game, stuck in traffic, the bus didn't leave at the scheduled time, fell sleep Seriously, the worst thing is that I haven't seen any official protest against it, just my humble opinion.
I don't personally see the point of imposing a zero-tolerance for lateness. The clock starts, so the player that arrives late loses time. One hour after the scheduled start time is reasonable.
I had a game where I woke up 10 miinutes after the start time, arrived about two minutes before the one-hour mark, and crushed my opponent in 18 moves. I had set my alarm to ring 90 minutes before the game was to start, but didn't set it to the "on" position lol
With the zero tolerance, I would not have been able to tell that story, and stories like mine are important to chess, so please get rid of it!!
...There are a million reasons a player can be late for a game, stuck in traffic, the bus didn't leave at the scheduled time...
Excuses for lateness would not fly in Gary's eyes. He might say a player should get up before the crack of dawn, to make sure he arrives on time:). It's a bit tougher for at least one of the players not to be tardy at events where there's more than one game a day, since players go away for a meal and relaxation.
I'd like to point out that if enough players on a professional sports' teams' players & coaching staff manage to show up for a sports game, it can start on time. Televised or not. Unlike a two player chess match, where all (both) individuals involved must arrive. If at a chess tournament just one board's players show up then that game can be televised, no problem, while more players are on their way. So, in my view, a better case can be made for zero tolerance for lateness to a chess match, if it is televised - but televised chess is relatively rare still, as has been pointed out. So far, the lack of zero tolerance for lateness has not been the reason why this is so.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
So, in my view, a better case can be made for zero tolerance for lateness to a chess match, if it is televised - but televised chess is relatively rare still, as has been pointed out.
No serious case can be made for tolerance zero because the worst thing that can happen to a sport event or any kind of shows is that it does not actually take place! The show must go on at all costs! The very first duty of a chess organizer is to make sure that the games are actually played, decided on the board. Who cares about a few minutes of lateness but a few people who cannot think outside of a strict and mindless application of arbitrary rules. A little flexibility goes a long way in making things work.
Who cares about a few minutes of lateness but a few people who cannot think outside of a strict and mindless application of arbitrary rules. A little flexibility goes a long way in making things work.
I think an arbiter should apply the rules equally to all the players. Who's to say one player should be allowed a few minutes lateness but another should not be allowed even more minutes lateness. Once an arbiter starts allowing exceptions to the rules, we know what kind of arbiter he is. The only question is how much he will allow and to whom.
I don't know why they made the Zero tolerance rule. Probably the person to ask is the CFC's FIDE representative. He can probably tell you if he voted on the rule and if he did, how he voted. In Canada the distances a person has to travel are often far and I can see where a player could come late.
To my surprise, the ATP pro tennis rulebook has an official grace period up to 15 minutes with fines, though only for players who are "on site". Although my point (a) wasn't meant to be a "grace period" as one replier thought, I do feel that chess should not be leapfrogging its traditions over peer professional organizations' rules to become more strict than them.
You raise a good point. The main reason for the ATP rule is to benefit the spectators. Neither the chess olympics nor world championships could be considered a spectator sport by any stretch of the imagination when compared to a sport.
The zero-tolerance (to me) is nonsense. Chess is a clock game, so if a player's time ticks away while he/she is running late, then who cares? Fans didn't spend gobs of money to watch the game, so why on earth should anyone care if a player is less than an hour late?
If it were tennis, then start serving while the other player isn't present, and just be sure not to double fault ;)
Last edited by Jordan S. Berson; Wednesday, 17th June, 2009, 12:23 PM.
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