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Poor 2400 CFC players! They pay full entry fee in normal tournaments and pay extra in Niagara Open. Very sad.
Seriously speaking, I have no problem if organizer wants to do something "unusual". I have never played in this tournament and have absolutely no intention to do so in the future.
About "12 years of success". Probably, John Brown and myself have in mind completely different meaning of the word "success".
I see nothing wrong with IMs/GMs paying an entry fee. I can see the benefit of giving them free entry's if in return they will join an event before a certain date, that helps attract more players (which you say is not a goal of your event, fine). I don't understand why you would charge the stronger players more then others - the only reason I can think of is to discourage them to play. They have the same chance at prizes like everyone else, that is fair. Playing better than others should not be discouraged.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
Poor 2400 CFC players! They pay full entry fee in normal tournaments and pay extra in Niagara Open. Very sad.
Seriously speaking, I have no problem if organizer wants to do something "unusual". I have never played in this tournament and have absolutely no intention to do so in the future.
About "12 years of success". Probably, John Brown and myself have in mind completely different meaning of the word "success".
Hi Victor;
A successful tournament for us is if we pay our expenses. Give out many prizes and have smiling faces and have players saying they'll be back next year.
Not sure what you or other TD's /Organizers expect to be successful.
If the elite would contact us and say "hey we will guarantee 15 players will come if you promote my entry" then we might rethink our idea. But our experience with +2300 players is they enter at last minute.
Actually this year if the +2300 sends a cheque before April 1st they only pay $5 more than the general public.
It is like the old days before you probably came to Canada. Premier paid higher fees, Intermediate paid another fee and Novice paid a lower fee.
Niagara Falls Caters to Amateurs we do not hide that fact. Other tournaments cater to the elite. So if you want to play to a catered Elite tournament, our tournament is not for you.
Last edited by John Brown; Wednesday, 11th January, 2017, 08:09 PM.
Reason: additions
I see nothing wrong with IMs/GMs paying an entry fee. I can see the benefit of giving them free entry's if in return they will join an event before a certain date, that helps attract more players (which you say is not a goal of your event, fine). I don't understand why you would charge the stronger players more then others - the only reason I can think of is to discourage them to play. They have the same chance at prizes like everyone else, that is fair. Playing better than others should not be discouraged.
Hi Nikolay;
If +2300 pay before April 1st they only pay $5 more than the general public.
I'll give you an abstract situation. Last Year our rent was $600 we had basic TD expenses of about $100.
So all of a sudden we do not charge for IM's 10 show up. Now we only have 15 other players show up because we had a major storm in the area. So $15 x$65 = 975 so less expenses we have $275 who gets the money? The people who paid an entry or the people who did not pay an entry? What would you do as an organizer/TD? Now if the 10 +2300 paid $80 that's another $800 in the pot. Now you have a prize fund. I personally with a prize fund of $275 would give $100 for first and give the other 15 paid players the rest as class prizes. Elite players should play in elite sponsored tournaments. Niagara Falls is not an elite sponsored tournament.
Last edited by John Brown; Wednesday, 11th January, 2017, 07:50 PM.
Reason: additions
If you try to please everybody, you may end up pleasing nobody. I have been trying to do this for several years without meaningful success.I havent lost money yet but got one or two close calls. hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? I have been trying new things to get more players (make it interesting, like include lunches, free giveaways of books, free entry to subsequent tournaments,even raffle for a player's lunch expenses reimbursement). The only thing I havent tried as yet is to throw more money at prizes, risking above what the tournament can afford (aka more of my own money). I do see big turnouts almost without exception (if memory serves me well), when there is big money. That does not even guarantee the tournament will be in the black, yikes! As to your question of the market being big, which market exactly are you referring to? There are many markets of chessplayers, those who play for fun, those who play for money, those who play for ratings, etc,. Whoever can solve this magic formula to satisfy all these markets, will even have a chance to make satisfactory money as an organizer.
I find that most top rated players are saying that the lower band of players should not be concerned about playing for money. Sure you can argue that the top rated players are the ones actually trying to win the tournament and are putting more work. This does solve issues about sandbagging or intentional losses too. However, a lot of people have made it a point that lower rated players should not be concerned about prize money since most of them are a more casual player such that they don't take time to study and just play on the weekends. These are all valid points to why the lower rated sections should only play for trophies, my concern however is that their entrance fees are used to fund the prize fund of other sections. If the u1600 sections should only be there for entertainment and playing chess then charge them for the trophy and CFC fees. They shouldn't be paying to "entertain" the higher rated sections. Lastly, my personal opinion is that u1600s have just as much of a right to play for prizes as long as they enjoy and love the game of chess. Should we reward mediocrity? Just because they aren't "good enough" doesn't mean you should exclude them from prizes or use part of their entrance fee to fund a prize they are not even eligible for. People come to tournaments to have fun and a competitive atmosphere, as long as there is enough people in a section then I think a prize fund should be included that is representative of the participants. Yes, open sections are harder to win and sandbagging does exist, so I think the upper rated sections should get a larger cut with a reasonable cut going towards the lower rated sections. No amateur expects to make a profit at chess tournaments but I find it ridiculous if their money is used to subsidize higher rated players and none of that money is returned to them.
How about this for a solution? Heck, i am a tournament orgainzer and I would be willing to try it: We have chess tournaments with a very narrow range of eligible ratings. For example, we have a tournament for players who have a rating between 1300 and 1500 only. Do you think that would work? There would have to be some anti sandbagging program in effect but maybe it could work. If I could get at least 60 players, I would give it a try, anyone interested?
Hi Nikolay;
If +2300 pay before April 1st they only pay $5 more than the general public.
I'll give you an abstract situation. Last Year our rent was $600 we had basic TD expenses of about $100.
So all of a sudden we do not charge for IM's 10 show up. Now we only have 15 other players show up because we had a major storm in the area. So $15 x$65 = 975 so less expenses we have $275 who gets the money? The people who paid an entry or the people who did not pay an entry? What would you do as an organizer/TD? Now if the 10 +2300 paid $80 that's another $800 in the pot. Now you have a prize fund. I personally with a prize fund of $275 would give $100 for first and give the other 15 paid players the rest as class prizes. Elite players should play in elite sponsored tournaments. Niagara Falls is not an elite sponsored tournament.
Hi John,
I repeat, I see nothing wrong with IM's (or 2300+ players) paying an entree fee just like anyone else. Why make them pay more than others (even if its symbolic)? Its disrespectful.
With a small prize fund and a location quite far from toronto, you wont get too many of those IM's playing anyway..but why discourage them from playing.
We do not run our tournaments for IM's we run them for amateurs. So if an IM wants to come then we know they will most likely win the first prize. We could have limited the tournament to seniors 60 and over with ratings under 2000.. Then we'd have complaints why we disrespected the other groups. We chose to charge IM's and +2300 more. It's our tournament and that's our fees. It is the same argument ,why do other tournament TD's charge amateurs the same as the higher groups? We cannot win the same prizes. Are they not disrespectful to us?
Last edited by John Brown; Thursday, 12th January, 2017, 06:45 AM.
Reason: additions
If you try to please everybody, you may end up pleasing nobody. I have been trying to do this for several years without meaningful success.I havent lost money yet but got one or two close calls. hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? I have been trying new things to get more players (make it interesting, like include lunches, free giveaways of books, free entry to subsequent tournaments,even raffle for a player's lunch expenses reimbursement). The only thing I havent tried as yet is to throw more money at prizes, risking above what the tournament can afford (aka more of my own money). I do see big turnouts almost without exception (if memory serves me well), when there is big money. That does not even guarantee the tournament will be in the black, yikes! As to your question of the market being big, which market exactly are you referring to? There are many markets of chessplayers, those who play for fun, those who play for money, those who play for ratings, etc,. Whoever can solve this magic formula to satisfy all these markets, will even have a chance to make satisfactory money as an organizer.
I try to capture all the pool of players if I am the TD. It maybe wishful thinking though but that's what I will do....
I repeat, I see nothing wrong with IM's (or 2300+ players) paying an entree fee just like anyone else. Why make them pay more than others (even if its symbolic)? Its disrespectful.
With a small prize fund and a location quite far from toronto, you wont get too many of those IM's playing anyway..but why discourage them from playing.
Nikolay, you are an elite player, and as such you view the Niagara Falls entry fee structure from that vantage point. But from my vantage point, that of the “mediocre” player, it is nothing short of genius.
Look at the discounts available to me.
Mediocre discount – since I am under 2300, discount $15. ($65 instead of $80)
Senior discount – age 60+, discount $10 ($55 instead of $65)
Early payment discount – before April 1, discount $10
I agree, J & J do rock!! And their tournament has been a big success to the people who matter most - the people who play in it. Plus, their tournament has something that not all tournaments have - atmosphere!
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
Nikolay, you are an elite player, and as such you view the Niagara Falls entry fee structure from that vantage point. But from my vantage point, that of the “mediocre” player, it is nothing short of genius.
Look at the discounts available to me.
Mediocre discount – since I am under 2300, discount $15. ($65 instead of $80)
Senior discount – age 60+, discount $10 ($55 instead of $65)
Early payment discount – before April 1, discount $10
So my entry fee is $45. (total discounts $35)
Thanks John and John. You guys rock!
Hi Bob,
As I understand, the point of discounts in chess tournaments are to attract a certain minority group. Youth discounts (recently abolished in Hart House, as juniors are no longer a minority at tournaments), Senior discounts, Women discounts - those makse sense. Early payment discounts make sense, again, to attract more participants. I don't see how amateur discounts make sense, amateurs are the majority of any tournament. In some tournaments, they have an option for a low entry fee, but no chance to win prizes - this one makes sense to me as well.
To John -
Its your tournament and your fees, and I wish you the best. I just pointed out some things that seem illogical to me. In your tournament, you have only one section, so all players are playing for the same prizes (actually - not quite, there are class prizes that higher rated players have no chance to win - but the class players can win the main prizes just as well).
Plus, their tournament has something that not all tournaments have - atmosphere!
Awesome, great news to me having never played in that tourney.
As always this has been a critical factor for most everything I've done and a critical factor going forward for chess in Canada to reach its full potential!
As I understand, the point of discounts in chess tournaments are to attract a certain minority group. Youth discounts (recently abolished in Hart House, as juniors are no longer a minority at tournaments), Senior discounts, Women discounts - those makse sense. Early payment discounts make sense, again, to attract more participants. I don't see how amateur discounts make sense, amateurs are the majority of any tournament. In some tournaments, they have an option for a low entry fee, but no chance to win prizes - this one makes sense to me as well.
To John -
Its your tournament and your fees, and I wish you the best. I just pointed out some things that seem illogical to me. In your tournament, you have only one section, so all players are playing for the same prizes (actually - not quite, there are class prizes that higher rated players have no chance to win - but the class players can win the main prizes just as well).
Thanks Nikolay;
We have one section and we usually give out only 7 place prizes. If John Erickson wants to give out extra prizes either Junior or classes that is his decision. We also give out many Upset Prizes which not many TD's do.
But to set the record straight we have had IM's or over 2300 's at our tournaments almost every year. The last two years we have had players from Cuba and our fees have never stopped people from coming out.
I live in Brampton and I have travelled to Niagara on the Bus. So if I can do it then anyone from Toronto can do it.
Excuses and complaints will always hound us and this tournament but we still run it and we still have great people showing up to support us, in fact some have become our best friends. Maybe it is time to realize that we support the players who pay the bulk of expenses at the other tournaments and they never get the thank you that we try to give them.
Last edited by John Brown; Thursday, 12th January, 2017, 08:13 PM.
Reason: spelling
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