Trump - The NEW, New Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

    Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
    Would that be the same base which did not appear in the polls because they didn't want to sleep on the couch when they answered the phone in front of their wife. The base is still solid. The polls are Fake News.
    Vlad, I don't rely on any particular poll. Real Clear Politics website gives a rolling average of several major polls, including Rasmussen which is usually more favourable to Trump. But even Rasmussen has a significant negative score for Trump.

    Real Clear Politics also has an excellent array of editorials, both positive and negative towards Trump. It is fascinating to read them across the political spectrum. To my pleasant surprise, I found one written by Bernie Sanders giving advise to Democrats on how to start winning elections.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/o...f=opinion&_r=0

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

      Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post
      Vlad, I don't rely on any particular poll. Real Clear Politics website gives a rolling average of several major polls, including Rasmussen which is usually more favourable to Trump. But even Rasmussen has a significant negative score for Trump.

      Real Clear Politics also has an excellent array of editorials, both positive and negative towards Trump. It is fascinating to read them across the political spectrum. To my pleasant surprise, I found one written by Bernie Sanders giving advise to Democrats on how to start winning elections.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/o...f=opinion&_r=0
      How would Bernie know? Unlike Trump he was not able to beat Hillary. Bernie is an anti-Christian bigot. He attacked a budget director office appointee for his Christian beliefs and seems to believe that Christians should not be allowed to hold such offices.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

        Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
        ... Bernie is an anti-Christian bigot. He attacked a budget director office appointee for his Christian beliefs and seems to believe that Christians should not be allowed to hold such offices.
        Would you please provide some links to support those statements?
        "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
        "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
        "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

          Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
          How would Bernie know? Unlike Trump he was not able to beat Hillary. Bernie is an anti-Christian bigot. He attacked a budget director office appointee for his Christian beliefs and seems to believe that Christians should not be allowed to hold such offices.
          Uh, Vlad, that's not what I got out of reading what he said. He questioned Vought on comments Vought had made about Muslims.

          Here's what was said (courtesy Fox "news"):
          Sen. Sanders: "'Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned.' Do you believe that that statement is Islamophobic?"

          Mr. Vought: "Absolutely not, Senator. I'm a Christian, and I believe in a Christian set of principles based on my faith...

          Sanders: "...Forgive me, we just don't have a lot of time. Do you believe people in the Muslim religion stand condemned? Is that your view?"

          Vought: "Again, Senator, I'm a Christian, and I wrote that piece in accordance with the statement of faith at Wheaton College..."

          Sanders: "I understand that. I don't know how many Muslims there are in America. Maybe a couple million. Are you suggesting that these people stand condemned? What about Jews? Do they stand condemned too?"

          Vought: "Senator, I'm a Christian..."

          Sanders [shouting]: "I understand you are a Christian, but this country [is] made of people who are not just -- I understand that Christianity is the majority religion, but there are other people of different religions in this country and around the world. In your judgment, do you think that people who are not Christians are going to be condemned?"

          Vought: "Thank you for probing on that question. As a Christian, I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their religious beliefs. I believe that as a Christian that's how I should treat all individuals..."

          Sanders: "...Do you think that's respectful of other religions?... I would simply say, Mr. Chairman that this nominee is really not someone who this country is supposed to be about."

          I don't get "anti-Christian bigot" out of that exchange.

          Steve

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

            Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post
            'Trump - New Thread' has been captured by pirates. 'Trump - The NEW, New Thread' will now be the place where ChessTalkers can engage in civil discourse about Trump. : /

            The pirates dropped a cannonball, and it crashed through the deck and down through the hull, sinking the ship. "Trump, the New Thread" is now in deep water, for future treasure hunters to dive for and bring up priceless nuggets.

            All it took was to repeat the message of Vlad Drkulec's hate speech of May 27th. Larry Bevand knows what's what. He won't let that message appear here on ChessTalk, and I commend him for that.

            If only CFC voting members had as much sense of responsibility and morals.

            I am giving them a few weeks to do what needs to be done. After that, if Vlad hasn't been removed, I will contact various media outlets including Windsor media outlets and make it public what Vlad Drkulec, President of the CFC, thinks about atheists.
            Only the rushing is heard...
            Onward flies the bird.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

              ... I don't get "anti-Christian bigot" out of that exchange.

              Steve
              I agree with you.
              "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
              "Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
              "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                Originally posted by Steve Douglas View Post
                Uh, Vlad, that's not what I got out of reading what he said. He questioned Vought on comments Vought had made about Muslims.

                [/INDENT]I don't get "anti-Christian bigot" out of that exchange.

                Steve
                I got anti-Christian bigot from watching the exchange. I did not see the transcript. He was trying to get a Christian to deny what is written in the Bible in order to be acceptable to Bernie.

                So far Bernie's people have been engaged in one terrorist attack against Republicans and two murders arising out of a hate crime against Muslims in which two good Samaritans were killed. Bernie did denounce today's attack but he has certainly been ratcheting up the attacks on Republicans.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                  Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post
                  I agree with you.
                  Of course you do.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                    Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
                    I got anti-Christian bigot from watching the exchange. I did not see the transcript.
                    Then I suggest you pay more attention to the words, and less to your own prejudices about the person asking the questions.

                    He was trying to get a Christian to deny what is written in the Bible in order to be acceptable to Bernie.
                    No, he was questioning Vought's views on Muslims. It was Vought who kept dodging the question by starting every reply with "I am a Christian".

                    I cannot think of any reason why Vought's religious beliefs, or his views on muslims should have much to do with his suitability for the particular office involved. Neither man exactly covered themselves in glory.

                    So far Bernie's people have been engaged in one terrorist attack against Republicans and two murders arising out of a hate crime against Muslims in which two good Samaritans were killed. Bernie did denounce today's attack but he has certainly been ratcheting up the attacks on Republicans.
                    I am not aware of any statements by Sanders advocating physical attacks or anything even close to that. Both the Republicans and the Democrats have radical supporters. If any fault is to be laid at Sanders feet then it would be for not properly screening volunteers to weed out the unstable ones. To make that claim, you would have to get real specific about how Sanders and/or his team is responsible.

                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                      Ow. Not sure why I'm writing this, but here goes.

                      Going off the transcript, I can see how Sanders questioning can be interpreted as an attack against Christians. Because it is an attack on a person which uses one of the key tenets of scripture and is one many Christians, including myself find difficult to deal with.

                      The critical passage is Mark 16:16, which says "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe shall be condemned." Also John 3:18, which pretty much says the same thing. I have spoken with several Muslims on religion and my understanding is that they consider Jesus, like Moses before and Mohammad afterwards, a prophet. But they do not consider him to be the son of god. So if you are a biblical literalist, then you are forced to the conclusion that Muslims are condemned, as are Buddists, Confucians, atheists, Wiccans, what have you.

                      So this fellow Vought makes this statement some time in the past that Muslims do not know god because they rejected Jesus and thus stand condemned. Unfortunately I do not know the context that this was taken from, but yeah he probably believes it, given the passages I listed above, which are preached extensively. Sanders proceeds to first imply that the statement is Islamophobic, and then uses the statement to declare that Vought was not an acceptable candidate. And Vought was not allowed to complete a single sentence to clarify his position.

                      The thing is one can believe the passages in question and yet not be Islamophobic, anti-Jew, any of it. As Vought stated, "I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their religious beliefs." And this is captured in scripture as well. The parable of the good Samaritan is one example.

                      So yeah, this looks like the use of the person's religious beliefs to show him as being unfit for some public office. Given that this person is Christian, it looks like an anti-Christian attack.

                      Christianity has it warts, big ones. I'm not denying it. So do the other religions, major and minor. But I am of the opinion that if this was an interview say between Newt Gringrich and a Muslim politician was attacked in the same manner regarding the passage in the Qur'an that says to fight those who do not believe in Allah, the persons posting would have a considerable different opinion on whether or not it was an Islamophobic attack.

                      PS: For the sake of full disclosure, I don't believe that the only way to avoid being condemned in the afterlife is to believe in Jesus and be baptized. I prefer to believe that there are many ways to salvation all that involve loving others as you love yourself, a position almost universally common to all religions.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                        Hi Garland:

                        Vought's statement that Sanders was hammering about, particularly removed from context, could definitely be perceived as islamophobic. As such I can see how it would be brought up in questioning by Sanders of a Trump appointee. Islamophobia is a spreading problem in the U.S. at the moment and a lot of it is being whipped up by the sitting president.

                        IMO Vought waffled, but once he made his final statement that should have been the end of it. Sanders' final assessment of Vought is not one I share based on that transcript, but I don't see anti-Christian bigotry. I would have concerns about Vought if he were being chosen for a post where sensitivity to other religions/cultures was important. I don't think Mr. Vought would be a good choice to be a diplomat to a primarily muslim country for example. But in this case, meh.

                        There was a good opinion piece in the Washington Post on this tempest in a teacup:

                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.af897ad64eb9

                        Steve

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                          I liked the article. Well written, although the headline is not well representative of the body of the text. I also recommend https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...vought/529614/

                          Still, reading through this and the background of the original post that Sanders quoted, it seems more clear to me that Sanders used Vought's post describing Christianity's tenet on salvation as an example of Islamophobia and was willing to deny the person the position as a Deputy Director of the OMB based on his religious beliefs. At best, Sanders attack is based on not not taking the time to understand the person's beliefs. At worst it is being intolerant of those beliefs. To deny Vought the position based on his beliefs is doing exactly the thing Sanders is saying he is against.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                            Originally posted by Garland Best
                            Muslim politician was attacked in the same manner regarding the passage in the Qur'an that says to fight those who do not believe in Allah
                            First off other then the statement above I agree with Garland's entire post. The difference between Islam and the other major religions in the modern world is that a disproportionate number follow the Qu'ran the way it was prescribed 1500 years ago. Unfortunately the "warts" in this religion have lethal consequences when practiced literally. I could not give a toss that a Christian believes that I am condemned in the afterlife if I do not accept Jesus. I do give a toss when a visiting cleric to a mosque in Montreal calls for the killing of Jews as happened recently. See link http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...sque-1.4037397
                            For me "Islamaphobia" does not figure into it...it is about self preservation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                              It is unfortunate that you took that particular passage that way. Yes there is a highly visible faction that use this passage to justify violence. However there are also passages in the bible and the Torah that are also used to justify violent actions against others and their own. Most Muslims that i have spoken with have used the passage in question to describe the need to resist the loss of their beliefs to the influences of those who do not believe. But they don't use it to condone violence. Islam itself is not the problem. Radicalism is, and radicalism can and has occurred in all three of the religions being discussed, just in very different eras.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Trump - The NEW, New Thread

                                Originally posted by Garland Best View Post
                                It is unfortunate that you took that particular passage that way. Yes there is a highly visible faction that use this passage to justify violence. However there are also passages in the bible and the Torah that are also used to justify violent actions against others and their own. Most Muslims that i have spoken with have used the passage in question to describe the need to resist the loss of their beliefs to the influences of those who do not believe. But they don't use it to condone violence. Islam itself is not the problem. Radicalism is, and radicalism can and has occurred in all three of the religions being discussed, just in very different eras.
                                Yes I agree with everything you have said. The problem is that other religions do not have highly visible factions in the same numbers as Islam that use passages to practice violence.I do not hear about other religions on a weekly basis using passages as a rationalization towards violence. Here is an ex muslim I have spoken to that has a very different view. My cousin in Jerusalem introduced him to me. My cousin financed a film about his life. My cousin's organization supports 12000 bereaved families in Israel who have had members that were victims of Islamic terror.
                                For me it is not theoretical it is very real . http://www.jpost.com/Annual-Conferen...problem-454703

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X