The decline of Canadian chess?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

It begins with incentives.

Another incentive is to give TD/Orgs a percentage of any new memberships (all kinds) sold on site ...add that to the TD/Org remuneration.

As it is right now, organizers don't seem to much advertise to the general public for their tournaments, much preferring to let people (largely people who are CFC members already) come to them. It sure might help to pay organizers more for the more entrants that they get, though I fear all most organizers will do is habitually continue to just post their notices on chess message board(s) or announce them in club(s) near to them. Organized chess in Canada is rather incestuous that way.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

P.S. to my last post: I've written about Canadian clubs before, in regard to my experience with the ones I've known advertising to the public (if they much do) often just before their season starts, then advertising little if at all afterwards, until the start of their next season. In between people might join the club, but likely in even smaller numbers. Take that together with what I'm supposing in my previous post about what most local tournament organizers do (or don't do) to proactively advertise to the public (i.e. rely on message boards and local clubs with thus stagnant membership levels) and you can see a big reason why I think organized chess growth in Canada has been declining or stagnant for decades.

If the CFC improves itself or world chess has some sort of a boon (swelling club membership levels a bit) then this can help to boost CFC membership levels at times, but the underlying problem of seldom or never proactively going after enough newbies at all levels of organized chess in Canada remains. One organizer has told me in the past that there is no great army of undiscovered chess players out there who would otherwise become CFC members, or they would have by now, but I've never known him to actively advertise to the public, even on free community channels or newspapers.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Paul, why do you care about this? You don't play chess, or organise, as far as I know.

Why don't you focus your attention on something that really needs help, like International Olympic Committee, or Save the Whales, or something.

It's not like anyone here ever agrees with you.

Hey, did you hear about the new "Save the Whales" movement in Las Vegas?

It's a religious movement to bring all the high rollers to God.


I have a goal to bring new opportunities to chess players globally. I am working on that goal, and it is slow going because of the large pockets of apathy towards organized chess among the general population and the investment community. With Millionaire Chess, what happened is exactly what I predicted. They only exacerbated an already bad situation. Nobody sees chess as a viable investment.

But I would also say, nobody sees chess as I do. I look beyond what chess IS to see what it CAN BE. I don't rely on chess players to suddenly change behavior, as the Millionaire Chess people did. Instead, I investigate new ways to present chess so that there will be (1) greater appeal in playing an event, and (2) much greater appeal to the non-playing population in watching an event.

There's so much more I could say.... phase 1 of 4 ready now for pre-Christmas release on Android only..... but I'm just going to let it all happen and watch the fun begin..... very low-key to begin.....

[Sid Belzberg]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Hey, did you hear about the new "Save the Whales" movement in Las Vegas?

It's a religious movement to bring all the high rollers to God.


I have a goal to bring new opportunities to chess players globally. I am working on that goal, and it is slow going because of the large pockets of apathy towards organized chess among the general population and the investment community. With Millionaire Chess, what happened is exactly what I predicted. They only exacerbated an already bad situation. Nobody sees chess as a viable investment.

But I would also say, nobody sees chess as I do. I look beyond what chess IS to see what it CAN BE. I don't rely on chess players to suddenly change behavior, as the Millionaire Chess people did. Instead, I investigate new ways to present chess so that there will be (1) greater appeal in playing an event, and (2) much greater appeal to the non-playing population in watching an event.

There's so much more I could say.... phase 1 of 4 ready now for pre-Christmas release on Android only..... but I'm just going to let it all happen and watch the fun begin..... very low-key to begin.....

Why would you not release it on IOS? It is dead simple to do.
https://developer.apple.com/library/...015214-CH9-SW1

[Paul Bonham]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Why would you not release it on IOS? It is dead simple to do.
https://developer.apple.com/library/...015214-CH9-SW1

It might even be simpler because we've been using Unity which can cross-compile to various device platforms or to web apps. But for now, Android only to speed up the testing time. Other platforms likely in the new year.

Phase 2 by about Easter 2018. It is much more ambitious and will be more widely marketed. But Phase 2 doesn't even give a clue about Phase 3! I mean, the difference will be like night and day. And then Phase 4.......

[Garland Best]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

The problem with the Fischer boom was Fischer. In 1972 he was the poster boy of the cold war. Defeating the Russians at their own game, being the solo winderkin vs the Soviet machine etc, made for an ideal media story. Then after he won he refused to play again, the "soul less" Karpov became champion by default, and Fischer became a paranoid recluse. Conclusion? Chess is the game that is played by crazies. End of media coverage, on a very sad note. And the Fischer boom went with it.

The only person who comes close to Fischer when it comes to media attention is Kasparov. And he shot himself in the foot by breaking away from FIDE. Since then, which personalities in chess had the charisma to capture the media's attention in a sustained manner? And there's the problem. The game on its own is not sufficient to make good TV. People want a narrative.

In contrast the "hole cam" used in Poker, gave the technology to make the game accessible to the public. The viewer gets to see what the player cannot - the other players cards. He doesn't have to think through what the odds of winning the hand are, or recall how often the player bluffed in the past. He knows all, and can laugh at the follies of the losers. Technology does not disappear. Of course, this COULD just be poker's time in the sun. Apparently bowling was a popular televised sport in the fifties and sixties.

As for upsets in chess, I also don't see tennis players winning a major tournament after playing in only their third tournament, yet it remains a huge draw and a popular pastime. Same is true for most sporting events. So luck appears to be only a small factor in what makes a pastime popular.

You still haven't countered my backgammon argument.

[Garland Best]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I investigate new ways to present chess so that there will be (1) greater appeal in playing an event, and (2) much greater appeal to the non-playing population in watching an event.

Are you talking about chess or a chess variant? If you have a means to present chess to make it more appealing I'm very much interested.

How are things progressing on your previous release. Is it attracting interest? I haven't followed it much since the chessbase posting.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Re: poker vs chess:

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) - poker is an adult game. When did you ever hear about a junior poker tournament? And poker is an "individual" game - people play for themselves - not for their country/state/province. A poker Olympiad?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Championship Bridge with Charles Goren was a big TV show in its day, fwiw. The audience got to see all the hands, and was all-knowing, in this case too.

TV game shows can add an element of luck to the skill otherwise required to play. One thing poker has over these is that it's one of the few games on TV that's often played for high stakes, and that certainly can add to the interest level.

If chess variants ever make a real splash, there are some that are played with card deck(s) (besides any using dice), including one that uses cards to change certain rules of the game mid-stream. A hole cam might then be used one day for that sort of game, too. However, I think the high stakes aspect has a lot to do with poker's current success. Otherwise, perhaps backgammon might be more popular to watch on TV (though I wonder if the game's less colourful pieces/rules, or the lack of cards, are factors too).

Fwiw, The Master Game was a big BBC show about GM chess decades ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_Game

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Kriegspiel might be a good variant for TV. The players can see only their own board and may have to try a sequence of illegal moves ("umpired" by a third party) before finding a legal one. The "master board" (with the real positions of both player's pieces) would be the centre of attention. It was always fun playing over these games afterwards and having a good laugh. I remember Leo WIlliams trying to play multiple Kriegspiel games blindfolded. :-)

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I once had a computer program that umpired Kriegspiel as played between two players (a friend and I would sit in separate rooms and take turns at using the computer terminal).

Fwiw, I've tried to recall the difference between Kriegspiel rules as the variant was played (only?) in Canada (as described once in an old CFC magazine article by Howard Rideout) vs. the more standard rules. I knew that in Canada, any available pawn capture is automatically announced by the arbiter without a player even asking. However, I wasn't sure that there were even more differences. In any case, I don't think any websites use the Canadian(?) rules version of the game nowadays.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Here's a link to The Chess Variant Pages website's entry on Kriegspiel, fwiw:

http://www.chessvariants.com/incinf.dir/kriegspiel.html

Also, a wiki about a chess variant that uses card deck(s) to change some of the rules during play of the game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Chess

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I've met a few people who organize a once-a-year event which earns them enough for the year from admissions and booths. A decade ago I brought up the national Canadian Chess Open with its over $100,000 budget to an organizer friend. She's used to professional conference registration fees going to bring in a couple of keynote speakers (workshop leaders are volunteers), participant package, hotel fees, signage, audio-visuals and computers, entertainment night, car rentals/taxis, and ads/media interviews in industry magazines/conferences and, of course, staff.

I said 70% goes to player prizes. She was shocked: How can the main organizer make any money for their year of work?? What is a year of organizing work worth? Plus expenses for the use of their office, phone, and computer (and to travel to meetings in other cities to promote the event). Maybe $60,000? (OK, even include in that the income for also organizing one provincial and local events). That is budget item #1.

OK, a chess tournament is simpler than the mountain of emails for a multi-path event [e.g. daily discussion on endgames is one path, or running a chess club is another]. Chess players don't want to hang around all day for workshops on all aspects of chess. What about income from hotel room kickbacks, program ads and booths [for chess equipment, chess books and computer programs, provincial chess associations, chess schools and teachers, upcoming tournament promotion, chess souvenirs (such as t-shirts, baseball caps, mugs and key chains), government agencies, university recruiters, travel agencies (packages to foreign tournaments), investment brokers, casinos, massage, brain supplements and snack food]. Nope, almost none. Sorry, as she couldn't make money, she couldn't help me.

Canadian chess organizers are amateurs creating supplementary income for random players. It's an exciting sense of accomplishment, but it's charity work.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Fwiw, a CFC blog entry of mine a couple of months old that mentions 33 goals of mine (both short and long-term) that the CFC might aim for (many of them old and still unrealized) is still getting about 35 views a day, almost as many as my hypothetical political platform blog entry from a few years back that's still going strong. Even if most of my ideas for the CFC to possibly have as goals are unrealistic/stink for the foreseeable future, there is clearly a lot of interest out there.

Though it may be difficult to somehow motivate many more Canadian clubs and local organizers to go all-out to find significantly more newbie club & CFC members year after year (how do you contact all the clubs plus organizers, or know that they've got and liked the message?), I'd suggest that the CFC try to greatly improve itself from its current state, in steady incremental fashion if necessary (the CFC itself is the one thing the CFC can control). That way word may get around that Canada's national chess federation is getting (or has got) its act together, which may cause club and CFC membership levels to eventually swell for a number of years, perhaps for a long time to come. Fwiw, below is the list of 33 goals from my blog entry alluded to in the above quote (who knows, if they're nailed somewhere visible enough, a kind of reformation may be inspired eventually, even if not with all or any of these goals in mind):

The following is based on a July 2017 chesstalk discussion forum post of mine:

I've looked back on many of my old wishes about what the CFC might strive for in future, and I'll recap them here:

Short-term wishes:

1. Have a server available for CFC members that's ready to be used (ask even CFC members if some might administer it);
2. Have a USCF-style rating floor (e.g. if you're ever 15xx you can't go below 1300 ever) - fights sandbagging & may slow rating stagnation/decline of individual players (good for business!?);
3. Figure out how to promote chess better [as exciting] {cultural activity} - if nothing else, someday might have TV/Newspaper commercial(s) with a chess set plus refreshments on coffee table or picnic bench (no people present), with caption reminding people of chess in their childhood (asking if they would they like to brush up in a big way, then give CFC website address);
4. Have CFC President's message to CFC members (like e.g. Kalev Pugi used to write), say in email Newsletter;
5. Try to use community TV channels/newspapers across Canada to promote chess; organizers can use these to seek fresh organizers and volunteers, too;
6. Can approach military bases & other places where people regularly gather, to hope for large number of fresh players & organizers;
7. Rated Sections, or even whole events, designed to bring in many newcomers (takes advertising);
8. Occasional membership surveys - e.g. might get niche purchasing tendencies of chess players, which may help get more corporate sponsorship;
9. Perhaps private forum for ordinary CFC members on CFC Discussion Board.


Long-term(?) wishes:

10. Get demographics of CFC members (e.g. get date of birth, if nothing else);
11. Provide list of top Senior players in Canada;
12. Improve appearance of CFC website, the face of the CFC (main page currently looks jumbled);
13. Might improve CFC Discussion Board, e.g. have specialized forums for non-Chess topics (compare e.g. OzChess, the Australian chess message board);
14. Provide some thing(s) for non-elite player adult CFC members (e.g. more funding for some types of local events);
15. Recreational player membership;
16. Encourage growth of Canadian chess clubs (e.g. more discounts);
17. Lots of [big] clubs helps promote team chess eventually too - could have team chess on internet as well;
18. Regain Charitable Status for CFC;
19. Improve CFC transparency (e.g. public pie chart of [necessary] CFC expenditures);
20. New class of Senior membership (discounted);
21. New class of Military membership (discounted);
22. Perhaps add new class of Women's membership (discounted);
23. Get any Provincial Associations not already relating to/affiliated with CFC into the fold somehow (Sask. is coming back now, at least);
24. CFC a force for chess education, e.g. core subject in schools;
25. Provide seperate Active and Blitz ratings;
26. Provide print CFC magazine again eventually;
27. Get a CFC physical office (and store) again eventually;
28. Besides chess books & equipment, CFC can sell e.g. T-shirts or perhaps even Canadian elite chess player [post]cards (with data);
29. Provide CFC Bughouse ratings eventually (perhaps same for Chess960, Crazyhouse & even other chess variants);
30. Eventually lower CFC membership fees (e.g. by $3?);
31. Eventually lower CFC rating fees (e.g. by $1?);
32. Revisit the CFC governance structure (e.g. have one member one vote), perhaps;
33. Have 10,000+ CFC members (my old target was to hope for 2,000+ once again).


Fwiw, link to Luther's 95 Theses ;):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-five_Theses

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I think the people who are asking for the CFC (someone else) to do more to promote chess should organize one tournament or one chess club or one chess class featuring CFC rated games. If every voting member and every hundredth CFC member or chess parent did that CFC memberships would take care of themselves.