The decline of Canadian chess?

[John Brown]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Very insightful post Bob, thanks.

I think Aris that Bob Gillander's post is exactly what is correct. I'm sure there are many organizers who skim off money from the entries.

I am probably one who believes that being an organizer should pay all expenses and give the chess players the money they deserve.
I ran 10 William F. Darch tournaments with 100% prize funds. William F. Darch was my friend and he deserved to be honoured.
This discussion is why Canadian Chess is in decline? I believe Canadian chess is in decline because you all have forgot what drew us to the sport. OUR INTEREST IN CHESS.
Organizers get too many complaints, chess players are pigs and I believe that underrated players playing in adult events are destroying chess as it was 10-20 years ago when we enjoyed playing chess.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Then we should set the TD/Org remuneration at $10.00 per entrant ... 50 player tourney = $500.00 for 20 hours work. Not to shabby. And the more the tournament is marketed the better the chances of increased participation! Given the correct demographics a tourney could easily reach 60 players. Easy as that, no?

If it's so easy why aren't you doing it? Back to the original topic of the thread, I'd be interested in seeing another stat - number of rated games played each year for the past decade or so. Perhaps separated by standard/active/junior.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

You guys f'd up your Canadian sugar daddy ... Sid Belzberg.

It's your executive old boy's club Hal that has been so skillful in guiding the Chess Federation of Canada ... to come begging on its knees.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Minimum wage is going up to $15 an hour. TD'ing a weekend tournament is at least 20 hours of work just over the course of the weekend, not to mention logistical work beforehand to set it up. Doing all this for $250 doesn't really seem like a great opportunity to me.

Certainly the possibility of receiving monetary compensation might encourage people who are already involved in chess to step in as organizers, but it's unlikely to bring people in from outside who are not primarily motivated by the desire to promote the game.

Then we should set the TD/Org remuneration at $10.00 per entrant ... 50 player tourney = $500.00 for 20 hours work. Not to shabby. And the more the tournament is marketed the better the chances of increased participation! Given the correct demographics a tourney could easily reach 60 players.

Easy as that, no?

[Nigel Hanrahan]

recording the games is chess culture and chess coaching

Addendum: any time control that makes recording the game a hardship is bad for chess development, imo. If kids can't record their games then they are losing out on their best material for improvement.

Nice! This is both good chess coaching and chess culture. I'm reminded of a quote on the FIDE website ...

Chess is not a 'casual' game. Unlike other sports, chess content remains vital and engaging long after the game is over and the results are know.

Just imagine if the magnificent chess databases that we now have at our fingertips, showing us the history of chess, its development, and so on, were missing and we had to keep inventing the wheel over and over again.

Imagine English literature without the plays of one William Shakespeare.

[Hans Jung]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Lets not have a full discussion without putting all factors on the table. Chess.com and twitter have announced a partnership and Eric Hansen and chessbrahs are one of the most successful on twitch. Also there are many American resources that are helpful to the Canadian chess scene. Nigel just referred to one (albeit a huge one) - Susan Polgar. Also reading Hal's good post and commenting Rex Sinquefeld has been a major factor for more than 10 years now and isnt about to go away. Lots happening. Those are just two factors off the top of my head.

[Hal Bond]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

This is a fascinating topic, like the meaning of life. As time marches on and more data rolls in, the less I understand. My two cents:

Canadian chess is not in decline but it is morphing. The Canadian chess economy is probably growing - more chess jobs for instructors of all ranks but I suspect the merch is in decline. Gone are the good old days of table top chess computers and multi-shelf chess book libraries and several chess mag subscriptions in every other chess player's home. I like Nigel's comments about chess culture. Bob is right about volunteer burn out. Neil is ... Neil.

Like our game itself, there is more than one approach. Success depends on definitions and expectations. John Nunn's version is too simplistic. Creating a synergy among the stakeholders (players, coaches, organizers, officials, resources) is the elusive key in my opinion. There is no one formula and the formulae are in continuous flux.

Part of the work with the FIDE Development Commission centres around the reams of statistics for Federations, zones, continents et al. These stats are helpful for each Federation to create their own success stories. These stories will vary! Look at Germany. A wonderfully developed chess nation, second only to Russia for its number of GMs/IMs and other titled players but ranked 14th in terms of their top 10 players. No superstars. Lots of chess culture. India and Norway have enjoyed booms because or their World Champions. I think Canada is similar to Australia - low population density, user pay chess economy, localized successes and spotty chess culture. The US has gotten a big boost at the top with patron Rex Sinquefeld but I don't know if this will be a blip or a legacy. Time will tell.

If Canada is to move "to the next level", my best guess is we need more institutional partnerships and the ability to harvest the fruits of these partnerships. Easier said than done. Off to work!

[Patrick Kirby]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

No, no and more no ... we are NOT custodians of chess. Chess was alive and doing very well, thank you very much, long before any city in Canada was even on the map!

Organized chess in Canada has been retarded. The growth of organized chess within 'old boy's chess clubs & old boy's chess organizations' has been stunted almost to the point of a perverse inbred mutation.

I can't wait for the day a 19 year old non-chess rated person TDs/Orgs a weekend tourney to simply grab $250 ... !!! ... and do it really really well under the guidance of a national chess organization.

They don't need to wax-poetic about the nature of our game.

As much as Chess is one of the greatest interfaces [etc.,etc.,] to have ever existed it is also a product ... a commodity.

Minimum wage is going up to $15 an hour. TD'ing a weekend tournament is at least 20 hours of work just over the course of the weekend, not to mention logistical work beforehand to set it up. Doing all this for $250 doesn't really seem like a great opportunity to me.

Certainly the possibility of receiving monetary compensation might encourage people who are already involved in chess to step in as organizers, but it's unlikely to bring people in from outside who are not primarily motivated by the desire to promote the game.

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Very insightful post Bob, thanks.

[Ian Findlay]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Organizers should NEVER pay for tournament costs out of their own pockets.
John & John - you guys run a great weekend tournament in Niagara Falls every spring.
Count me in again for 2018, my cheque is in the mail.
Please pay yourselves whatever you feel is appropriate. No need to tell us, no need to feel guilty.

My first Banff Open, I lost about $300 out of my pocket. This year, I intend to lose about $500 - which does not include what I would have paid myself :) . It is my way of giving back and I don't mind at all. Also Neil (SoCA) has generously sponsored us and has given approx. $400 over 2 years. As my wife taught me when fund raising, it is a lot easier to ask for money when you are giving money yourself! It warms my heart to see about 4 or 5 unrated players playing and hopefully growing chess. Also seeing juniors come out and improving each year also makes it worthwhile.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I can't wait for the day [...] under the guidance of a national chess organization.

Still dreaming of presidency LOL

[Neil Frarey]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

I don't share your anti-socialist prejudice here. But there's a bigger point. I used to play chess in Winnipeg. In fact, Winnipeg was really where I began my serious chess career at the late age of 34. And I'm very grateful to the Winnipeg chess community. There was a real chess culture. This has nothing to do with money. It has to do with an understanding of chess as a kind of civilizational mission.

Musicians love music, dancers love dance. Chess players love chess. And you share your affection for the art because, ultimately, you think it makes you a better human being. This is what some of us mean by chess culture.

Anyway, I was commenting about Winnipeg. And I remember, that chess culture, and we had a tournament director, whose name is not important, who was a very good player and also a competent TD. He made the money argument that you are making. And I have to say, his argument fell on deaf ears. For him, it was about the money. For all the others, it wasn't. And I don't think he ever understood that.

These money arguments are shallow, and partly true, but missing the point.

Of course I agree wish the idea to pay TDs and organizers as best we can. But that's not it. We are custodians of a glorious, noble game, like temporary stewarts of something priceless. We need to convey this greatness of our game. And the way that we do that is that we open people's eyes to chess culture, a culture that is 1,500 years old, and, I rather expect, will last another 1,500 years. We need to be humble.



Agreed. And when the players get older, then what? Isn't this actually a problem in Canada ... the way juniors, mostly, disappear from adult competitive chess?

No, no and more no ... we are NOT custodians of chess. Chess was alive and doing very well, thank you very much, long before any city in Canada was even on the map!

Organized chess in Canada has been retarded. The growth of organized chess within 'old boy's chess clubs & old boy's chess organizations' has been stunted almost to the point of a perverse inbred mutation.

I can't wait for the day a 19 year old non-chess rated person TDs/Orgs a weekend tourney to simply grab $250 ... !!! ... and do it really really well under the guidance of a national chess organization.

They don't need to wax-poetic about the nature of our game.

As much as Chess is one of the greatest interfaces [etc.,etc.,] to have ever existed it is also a product ... a commodity.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

Option 1 – No thanks. “I am doing enough already, how about you do it?”. Many valued long serving chess volunteers have wisely chosen this option.
Option 2 – Okay. “I will do more and more and more, for free”. This option leads to Burnout. This is not a good option.
Option 3 – Okay, but I need to get paid for the extra workload beyond my volunteer comfort level.

It leads to a quicker burnout if only one person takes a task to organizer everything. You need a team to share a load and have fun.


Anyway, hard to say about the decline when we got recently a GM, 3 IMs, and Aman is heading towards GM.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

When I mentioned to the new CMA Regional Director that Ottawa Scholastics Grand Prix event #2 overlaps with RA Winter Open she told me that RA tournaments are for adults and CMA tournaments are for kids only.
Probably she doesn't know that 10+ kids who play at Ottawa CMA tournaments also play at RA and they all have higher CFC than CMA ratings. I wonder how & why?
Here is a quick example of players from the last CMA tournament:

Matthew Zhu CMA 1251 CFC 1482
Alex Stopic CMA 1167 CFC 1433
Joshua Porras CMA 1143 CFC 1501
Vincent Qin CMA 1041 CFC 1396
Oswin Ning CMA 999 CFC 1323
Alwin Ning CMA 1047 CFC 1537

I spoke to some of kids and they all find CAM tournaments not challenging enough. They all preferred RA tournaments.

And, by the way, kids were disappointed that only first place won medal. Before, the first 3 places won medals and kids were much happier and much more motivated.
I don't know how much medals cost but they are something kids are proud of.

In my experience, the development of young players in Ottawa specifically goes like this:

- Introduced to chess via CMA lessons.
- A fraction make the leap to CMA events, and never advance beyond that.
- A small percentage of CMA tournament players make it to the CFC.
- Most when they make it to the CFC events stop playing in most CMA events. Exceptions are the provincials and Chess Challenge.

It is difficult for even professional players to alternate time controls in the events they play. Many kids who crossover to CFC events first play too quickly in those events, but most in time learn to play as slowly as the adults. The problem is that they then have to revert back to their quickplay tempo when playing CMA. It was more than a decade ago when I suggested that the top section or two of CMA events in Ottawa should be G/45 or even G/60 but it was felt that those time controls were too slow for the kids who had no interest in ever making the transition to CFC.

Addendum: any time control that makes recording the game a hardship is bad for chess development, imo. If kids can't record their games then they are losing out on their best material for improvement.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: The decline of Canadian chess?

It is not about the money. It is about respect.
No chess organizer, tournament director, club official or volunteer gets in it for the money. They all start out with the best of intentions: to support the chess community. Their motivation can range anywhere from wanting to see Canada excel on the world stage to just finding someone else locally to play. What they all experience from the chess community are requests to do more. They have 3 options.
Option 1 – No thanks. “I am doing enough already, how about you do it?”. Many valued long serving chess volunteers have wisely chosen this option.
Option 2 – Okay. “I will do more and more and more, for free”. This option leads to Burnout. This is not a good option.
Option 3 – Okay, but I need to get paid for the extra workload beyond my volunteer comfort level.

One reality we all eventually realize is that the money alone (if any) will never be adequate for the time and effort involved. This is true because there will always be another volunteer willing to choose Option 2.

Whatever option is chosen: the joy of volunteering, the appreciation of the players, fees earned (if any), can all combine as “compensation”. I put this question to the players:
Is it not a sign of disrespect to expect an endless supply of option 2 volunteers?