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If it's so easy why aren't you doing it? Back to the original topic of the thread, I'd be interested in seeing another stat - number of rated games played each year for the past decade or so. Perhaps separated by standard/active/junior.
As president of the EOCA I brought in the TD/Org remuneration, it was my idea, Christopher. And I set no limit on the amount per player.
And as for your second bit of hindsight ... you are right. A gross failing of the current and past presidents (and their Execs) is NOT knowing who your customers are ... yes, customers. Get used to understanding CFC chess as a commodity/product ... the members are our customers. And critical to that is data.
But it is good to see that you're finally coming around ...sort of.
Anyways, add to your request/interest those standard/active/junior/adult ... Male | Female. A lot of ground to make up but at least you're heading in the right direction!
I think Aris that Bob Gillander's post is exactly what is correct. I'm sure there are many organizers who skim off money from the entries.
I am probably one who believes that being an organizer should pay all expenses and give the chess players the money they deserve.
I ran 10 William F. Darch tournaments with 100% prize funds. William F. Darch was my friend and he deserved to be honoured.
This discussion is why Canadian Chess is in decline? I believe Canadian chess is in decline because you all have forgot what drew us to the sport. OUR INTEREST IN CHESS.
Organizers get too many complaints, chess players are pigs and I believe that underrated players playing in adult events are destroying chess as it was 10-20 years ago when we enjoyed playing chess.
To get off on the right foot on this bold new adventure of growth some questions need to be asked.
Is the Chess Federation of Canada a business that offers a product?
If yes; what are the products and how to find and grow a customer base.
As president of the EOCA I brought in the TD/Org remuneration, it was my idea, Christopher. And I set no limit on the amount per player. And as for your second bit of hindsight ... you are right. A gross failing of the current and past presidents (and their Execs) is NOT knowing who your customers are ... yes, customers. Get used to understanding CFC chess as a commodity/product ... the members are our customers. And critical to that is data. But it is good to see that you're finally coming around ...sort of. Anyways, add to your request/interest those standard/active/junior/adult ... Male | Female. A lot of ground to make up but at least you're heading in the right direction!
How is being curious about number of games played a "second bit of hindsight" and how does it have anything to do with knowing "my" customers ?? I'm definitely not coming around to your point of view on anything - if anything I'm closer to John Brown's: I haven't organized any chess events in quite some time and it has nothing to do with compensation and everything to do with how organizers get treated by the players. The reason I asked about those stats is because that would be in my view the key indicator of whether or not Canadian (organized) Chess is in decline, not CFC membership numbers. And no, I don't think Male/Female is particularly useful for that indicator. But don't worry Neil, there's still time. You've always been full of ideas for other people to do. Become part of the solution yourself! Join the CFC and play in some events. You're currently averaging a little under 1 rated game per decade since the online ratings went live.
How is being curious about number of games played a "second bit of hindsight" and how does it have anything to do with knowing "my" customers ?? I'm definitely not coming around to your point of view on anything - if anything I'm closer to John Brown's: I haven't organized any chess events in quite some time and it has nothing to do with compensation and everything to do with how organizers get treated by the players. The reason I asked about those stats is because that would be in my view the key indicator of whether or not Canadian (organized) Chess is in decline, not CFC membership numbers. And no, I don't think Male/Female is particularly useful for that indicator. But don't worry Neil, there's still time. You've always been full of ideas for other people to do. Become part of the solution yourself! Join the CFC and play in some events. You're currently averaging a little under 1 rated game per decade since the online ratings went live.
Number of rated games / year would be an interesting stat, and separating it into 3 sections (Junior, Senior, and All Others) would be great too, to see the trend towards children's chess which I believe endangers the future of chess, as in turning it into the next checkers.
Neil Frarey, with his Trumpian tendencies, loves to think that chess can be run as a business. Nevermind that the very best attempt at that, the Millionaire Chess Open, went for 3 years and lost its investors a pile of money. In the 3rd and last attempt in October 2016, the overall winner went home with a check for $30,000. Millionaire indeed! There were barely 400 players, and here is the sad post-event commentary which preceded a later announcement that due to lack of sponsorship, the event would not be held at all in 2017. Don't believe for a second that it's ever coming back:
Perhaps Neil will add his "personal fortune" to the pile of money lost by investors in chess! But I wouldn't count on it.
Um, no.
Why? Because it would be squandered on elitist pursuits, that's why.
On the other hand ... if I see clear evidence that the Chess Federation of Canada is making a honest effort, as in actual physical effort, to build its base as is where it should focus most of its energies ...then ya I would contribute to that.
A 180 degree change of attitude from where the CFC is now. You would have thought the annulment fiasco would have woken up the Chess Federation of Canada! But ...nope! They just keep on keeping on ...sigh.
Most recent: Saskatchewan came back to the CFC ... the CFC didn't rebuild Saskatchewan! No Provincial initiatives / no regional initiatives ...nothing. Instead, the CFC thinks that provincial and territory organizations should come to them!!! How hard is it to pen a letter to provincial and territorial leaders? Reach out and establish connections? Seriously ...not very ...unless you have an elitist attitude.
That kind of attitude doesn't need my support ...nor Sid's.
So, that's why I rather support (in a couple of forms) great folks such as Ian Findlay and his Banff Open!
Last edited by Neil Frarey; Thursday, 9th November, 2017, 01:01 AM.
Then we should set the TD/Org remuneration at $10.00 per entrant ... 50 player tourney = $500.00 for 20 hours work. Not to shabby. And the more the tournament is marketed the better the chances of increased participation! Given the correct demographics a tourney could easily reach 60 players.
Easy as that, no?
er.... Let us correct a few misapprehensions in this thread about what would be a commercially viable payment amount for organizers & TD
First up: the TD is putting in 6 rounds x 5 hours + say two hour prep work before the event and an hour after the event. 33 hours.
2nd up: The organizers are putting in substantial time too. renting the venue, perhaps a site visit, web site set up, advertising, arranging the TD + volunteers, meetings to discuss arrangements, on site setup and tear down, dealing with the money, setting policy, handling entries. For the GPO, I'm not completely sure how much it all adds up to but would say it's north of 40 hours. And there is an element of financial risk which would be compensated for in a fully commercial organization.
So compensate 70+ hours at your preferred rate bearing in mind these are skilled, responsible people who don't normally work for $15/hr plus something for financial risk plus as it's intermittent work you would also charge an overhead rate on top of that.
So what's a comparable commercial activity? I've in the past looked at what it costs to hire a wedding planner. You know, someone to get a venue, organize a bunch of stuff for one day on a weekend. Not so different really. Just to do that will typically cost $3000-$5000 (and up) just for organizing - rent, etc not included. And a good DJ (our equivalent to the TD) will cost $800 for a 4 or 5 hour session. Sure you can hire somebody's cousin for less but really you shouldn't. Granted, the DJ has capital costs which inflate the price somewhat but you get the drift.
If your measure is what it would take for commercial organizations "Chess Tournaments Inc." to arise to organize tournaments, think in terms of $5000/ weekend event. Adjust up or down according to size. There isn't a tournament in Canada that operates under those terms.
Nigel has it right when he says that while it is important to think about the money and compensation and do what we can, the real driver is the willingness of people to contribute to their favourite activity.
er.... Let us correct a few misapprehensions in this thread about what would be a commercially viable payment amount for organizers & TD
First up: the TD is putting in 6 rounds x 5 hours + say two hour prep work before the event and an hour after the event. 33 hours.
2nd up: The organizers are putting in substantial time too. renting the venue, perhaps a site visit, web site set up, advertising, arranging the TD + volunteers, meetings to discuss arrangements, on site setup and tear down, dealing with the money, setting policy, handling entries. For the GPO, I'm not completely sure how much it all adds up to but would say it's north of 40 hours. And there is an element of financial risk which would be compensated for in a fully commercial organization.
So compensate 70+ hours at your preferred rate bearing in mind these are skilled, responsible people who don't normally work for $15/hr plus something for financial risk plus as it's intermittent work you would also charge an overhead rate on top of that.
So what's a comparable commercial activity? I've in the past looked at what it costs to hire a wedding planner. You know, someone to get a venue, organize a bunch of stuff for one day on a weekend. Not so different really. Just to do that will typically cost $3000-$5000 (and up) just for organizing - rent, etc not included. And a good DJ (our equivalent to the TD) will cost $800 for a 4 or 5 hour session. Sure you can hire somebody's cousin for less but really you shouldn't. Granted, the DJ has capital costs which inflate the price somewhat but you get the drift.
If your measure is what it would take for commercial organizations "Chess Tournaments Inc." to arise to organize tournaments, think in terms of $5000/ weekend event. Adjust up or down according to size. There isn't a tournament in Canada that operates under those terms.
Nigel has it right when he says that while it is important to think about the money and compensation and do what we can, the real driver is the willingness of people to contribute to their favourite activity.
This is absolutely right.
That being said, when I was a student, the possibility of making a few hundred dollars for TD'ing a chess tournament (during which I would also have plenty of downtime to get some school work done) might have been a strong incentive to me. And it would have provided valuable experience that I could carry into the working world.
So Neil's idea is not a bad one. But it's only going to appeal to someone who's already interested in chess. And it would still require a decent amount of volunteer support, since I wouldn't expect a broke student to pay the deposit for the tournament venue, purchase a bunch of clocks and sets, collect and hold tournament entry fees in trust, etc. etc.
Back to the original topic of the thread, I'd be interested in seeing another stat - number of rated games played each year for the past decade or so. Perhaps separated by standard/active/junior.
This request to a rating auditor or database manager.
A simple "business" measure how much fees were collected, and that is quite easy to get from the fiscal reports. To me numbers go up.
er.... Let us correct a few misapprehensions in this thread about what would be a commercially viable payment amount for organizers & TD
Thank you, Roger. This is a great post.
I hope many of our TD’s / Organizers read it and gain a better appreciation of the value that they bring to the chess community. Nobody starts out to make money at it, but for those who find too much success (growth), the workload expands and can lead to Burnout. Most TD’s / Organizers pay themselves nothing. I did so myself for too many years. But feeling the burn, I began to argue for TD pay with my chess friends and associates. It has been a long and painful battle with limited success. To make a long story short: sometimes I get paid, sometimes I don’t. It is never enough, but it does help soothe the burn scars.
The same arguments extend to chess club officials and volunteers. Don’t burnout by going past your volunteer comfort level. It isn’t a job, you’re not getting paid. You have a right to enjoy the club too. Ask for others to volunteer. Help eliminate BURNOUT.
And uh.....despite the thread title,
Canadian Chess is NOT in decline.
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Thursday, 9th November, 2017, 11:42 AM.
The running of amateur chess tournaments in Canada (and make no mistake here, almost all Chess Tournaments in Canada are for amateur chess players) cannot be supported on the model that Neil advocates.
Organizing and running amateur chess events can be compared to running amateur theatre productions. It takes hours and hours of effort, beyond what one sees as the end result. And for these hours of efforts, one can at best receive an honarium, one that does not even cover their expenses. Usually they receive nothing financially, and quite often they even donate their own money.
So why do we do it? We do it for the gratitude, the thanks from those attending the events, and for the love of the game/play. That's what keeps us going. When these non-financial rewards become less than the efforts we put in, we stop. Money is usually the last thing on our priority list.
As it currently stands, the EOCA does not instruct local organizers how they should collect fees and calculate expenses and prize monies. If an organizer wants to receive renumeration for their work, it is up to them. Personally I don't. In fact a fair chunk of cash comes out of pocket at the end of the day from running a tournament. I believe that the same is true for the others.
So a good way of encouraging chess in Canada is to recognize and thank the organizers who run these tournaments for you. And if you think that you have a better idea for running a tournament, then try organizing a tournament of your own. We will be more than willing to help you get your idea off the ground.
The running of amateur chess tournaments in Canada (and make no mistake here, almost all Chess Tournaments in Canada are for amateur chess players) cannot be supported on the model that Neil advocates.
Organizing and running amateur chess events can be compared to running amateur theatre productions. It takes hours and hours of effort, beyond what one sees as the end result. And for these hours of efforts, one can at best receive an honarium, one that does not even cover their expenses. Usually they receive nothing financially, and quite often they even donate their own money.
So why do we do it? We do it for the gratitude, the thanks from those attending the events, and for the love of the game/play. That's what keeps us going. When these non-financial rewards become less than the efforts we put in, we stop. Money is usually the last thing on our priority list.
As it currently stands, the EOCA does not instruct local organizers how they should collect fees and calculate expenses and prize monies. If an organizer wants to receive renumeration for their work, it is up to them. Personally I don't. In fact a fair chunk of cash comes out of pocket at the end of the day from running a tournament. I believe that the same is true for the others.
So a good way of encouraging chess in Canada is to recognize and thank the organizers who run these tournaments for you. And if you think that you have a better idea for running a tournament, then try organizing a tournament of your own. We will be more than willing to help you get your idea off the ground.
I'm talking about organized chess under a national brand ... NOT ... chess in Canada. OK?
Don't even try to blur the line, Garland. Furthermore, the Chess Federation of Canada is a registered corporation. It's registered as a business. There's NOTHING "amateur" about that!
Glad we got that out of the way ...whew!
CMA business model is: _____________________________ ?
CFC business model is: ______________________________?
CMA business is a raging success.
CFC business is a stunted floundering effort at best.
CMA offers an incentive.
CFC does not offer an incentive.
*****
Starting to get the idea, Garlz? Focus on; successful business.
*****
Here's a couple of question for y'all:
What happens to the Chess Federation of Canada when there are NO MORE volunteers to keep it afloat?
Let's drive this home. Here in the EOCA remove the Iceman (Haldor P. Palsson) as a td/org volunteer ... what happens to organized chess of the EOCA and its Grand Prix? And on the flip side what happens to the EOCA when there is a list of well trained people who have the incentive of $$$ in the form of a remuneration?
*****
And further to remuneration I would like to see part of membership money kept within each region of Canada!
TD/Org Remuneration + Membership revenue = Growth of organized chess in Canada!
.
Last edited by Neil Frarey; Thursday, 9th November, 2017, 12:55 PM.
Neil, to clarify my posting, I was referring specifically to the following text of yours:
"Then we should set the TD/Org remuneration at $10.00 per entrant ... 50 player tourney = $500.00 for 20 hours work. Not to shabby. And the more the tournament is marketed the better the chances of increased participation! Given the correct demographics a tourney could easily reach 60 players. Easy as that, no?"
I do not believe this is viable. However, I would be interested know how CMA renumerates it's employees for organizing CMA events. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.
How the CFC success/fails to grow and promote chess in Canada is another matter entirely, one I am open to discussion about.
The CFC does in any form influence the tournament's finances, how monies are distributed etc with the exceptions to Closed and CYCC.
You are free to run a tournament per your vision. When is that? Like your presidency when you'll get 100 players signed on a white paper? LOL
Its obvious that Neil prefers a form of top down socialism where the CFC dictates what organizers and players can do. He is not a serious individual but just a lonely guy looking for some attention.
Its obvious that Neil prefers a form of top down socialism where the CFC dictates what organizers and players can do. He is not a serious individual but just a lonely guy looking for some attention.
Ad hominem attack Vlad. Attack the position, not the person. And I don't think you are right claiming Neil advocates dictating what organizers and players can do. Completely off base. I'm no Frarey fanboy, but I'm willing pay attention to what is being said.
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