new idea for (Canadian) Forfeit Losers List

[Aris Marghetis]

Hello there, especially chess Organizers, I would like your take on this new idea.

At the recent Zonal & Sectionals in Kingston, we used five different floater-players, across a wide rating range, to ensure that no one ever had to miss playing a round due to a forced bye.

As much work as that was, it was way easier to deal with than forfeit losses. We had very few forfeit losses, but they were predictably the same names that had forfeited at previous events.

To be open and honest here, few things in life irk me more than forfeit losses!
To make matters worse, one of those forfeits likely wiped out a CM Title claim.

Therefore, when I open registrations for the 2020 Closed & Sectionals (again in Kingston), anyone who forfeited at the recent 2019 event will have to add a deposit to their registration fee.

My initial thinking is $100, and if that player forfeits, then:
1) the opponent receives $50 in cash from me
2) the prize fund gets increased by the other $50
3) the forfeiting player needs to deposit another $100 before being un-withdrawn

Comments, feedback, etc?

If there is widespread agreement with this idea, I offer to maintain the Canadian Forfeit Losers List (CFLL). Organizers can set any penalty amount they want for themselves, but I can maintain a list of all forfeit losers for, say, the last two years and/or 24 rated games, whichever comes first? Again, I am open to ideas on just how long someone has to deposit due to their aging forfeit loss.

Of course, any Organizer can choose to NOT ask for this list, to NOT ask for deposits, etc. It will be completely voluntary whether anyone wants to imitate what we do for the Kingston events.

Thanks in advance for your insights,
arismarghetis at rogers dot com

[Erik Malmsten]

I hate forfeits! I maybe travelled, paid hotel, and entry fee of $20 per game to sit and waste time. In this age of phones that text and email, it is easy for players to contact the TD. However, I think after a 5 or 10 minute no show the TD can also phone the player.(s). (Although, in a FIDE tourney can't pair with each other those left at empty boards.)

There may be a good excuse such as family health emergency.

However, a too heavy penalty may discourage some casual players from entering. Need to publish tournament phone number in advance, post at tournament, and mention in round announcements. Maybe even have a box to check on the entry form, promising to phone before withdrawing.

[Larry Bevand]

Go for it Aris!

I rarely run events anymore but one of the things that was a real pain was collecting membership fees for various federations and the other thing was collecting NSF cheques.

The last event I ran was a Santa Claus Open in Montreal a few years ago. A guy comes to register on-site. He tells me he forgot his wallet at home...can he pay tomorrow...I say sure (you would think I would be smarter at my age sheesh!)...you have already guessed the rest. He lost his first game, never showed up for the 2nd round...I called him many times with no answer...eventually his Dad answered the phone...and basically told me to go away but in a less polite fashion....like father like son I guess.

So we lost the entry fee PLUS, we had to pay for a tournament participation which I believe was $20...plus a rating fee for this guy!.

Ahh, I should know better.

Larry

[Réjean Tremblay]

1) Deposit of $100 in zonal 2020.
2) When you send your report to FIDE, write a normal loss for forfeit player and a normal win for his opponent. Why a player who arrive at the time, lost 30 minutes or 60 minutes of his time must be penalized of his CM title (and to play a game, and to win rating points) because his opponent didn't ask a wake-up call from front desk ?
3) In Closed 2020, one of the player on the forfeit list forfeit another game ? $200 deposit in Zonal 2021!

[Aris Marghetis]

1) Deposit of $100 in zonal 2020.
2) When you send your report to FIDE, write a normal loss for forfeit player and a normal win for his opponent. Why a player who arrive at the time, lost 30 minutes or 60 minutes of his time must be penalized of his CM title (and to play a game, and to win rating points) because his opponent didn't ask a wake-up call from front desk ?
3) In Closed 2020, one of the player on the forfeit list forfeit another game ? $200 deposit in Zonal 2021!

So just to be clear:

1) I would ask for a deposit ONLY for players who had previously forfeited. So this is NOT a regular cost for the vast majority of regular players.
2) Even though I would love to rate the game, I cannot contravene rating regulations. This is yet another reason why I'm a lousy poker player.

Keep the comments coming, thanks!

[Aris Marghetis]

I hate forfeits! I maybe travelled, paid hotel, and entry fee of $20 per game to sit and waste time. In this age of phones that text and email, it is easy for players to contact the TD. However, I think after a 5 or 10 minute no show the TD can also phone the player.(s). (Although, in a FIDE tourney can't pair with each other those left at empty boards.)

There may be a good excuse such as family health emergency.

However, a too heavy penalty may discourage some casual players from entering. Need to publish tournament phone number in advance, post at tournament, and mention in round announcements. Maybe even have a box to check on the entry form, promising to phone before withdrawing.

Some quick thoughts:

1) with a big tournament, I gotta focus on the players that ARE there, isn't calling the late player me kinda assisting him?
2) I have no problem with a legitimate reason (although that NEVER happened in Kingston this year, almost never does!)
3) I don't get what you mean by "penalty". The deposit is ONLY by players who have PREVIOUSLY forfeited. Their fault.

[Hugh Brodie]

I remember an Ottawa organizer (Ron Rodgers?) many years ago who included a $5 deposit in the entry fee. At then end of the tournament, he had a stack of $5 bills that he gave back to everyone who had played all their games.
A deposit by all players is a good (mandatory?) idea for round-robin FIDE-rated events. It's a little harder to handle for a Swiss.

Charging extra for someone who has forfeited in a previous tournament has been tried in Quebec events - it didn't work, since some organizers didn't know about the "blacklist", and/or the player would play outside of Quebec, or simply never play again.

[Matthew Nicholson]

I totally support this idea as written and do not support any of the alternate concepts written below the original post.

Also, no show forfeits should totally be rated. Screw those people.

[Aris Marghetis]

I remember an Ottawa organizer (Ron Rodgers?) many years ago who included a $5 deposit in the entry fee. At then end of the tournament, he had a stack of $5 bills that he gave back to everyone who had played all their games.
A deposit by all players is a good (mandatory?) idea for round-robin FIDE-rated events. It's a little harder to handle for a Swiss.

Charging extra for someone who has forfeited in a previous tournament has been tried in Quebec events - it didn't work, since some organizers didn't know about the "blacklist", and/or the player would play outside of Quebec, or simply never play again.

So there were two main ideas to my original post:

1) I **AM** doing this for my 4 years of Zonals/Closed in Kingston. Anyone who forfeits in one of those events will have to provide a deposit in order to play in any subsequent event of mine.
This is very easy for me to do. I can remember the three names from last weekend.

2) Maintaining a greater list that any Organizer can ask for is just VOLUNTARY. IT DOESN'T MATTER if an Organizer doesn't use it, it's NO WORSE than before. Am I missing something?!
However, if Organizers indicate to me that they would refer to such a list, then my offer stands to try to maintain one. I'm still suggesting for two calendar years and/or 24 CFC-rated games.

[Aris Marghetis]

I totally support this idea as written and do not support any of the alternate concepts written below the original post.

Also, no show forfeits should totally be rated. Screw those people.

Thanks man, I like the way you wrote that. I'm already at the point that drove most of my decisions at Kingston: hear what people say, but decide alone. The less cooks, the better the meal, lol

[Alex Ferreira]

Hi Aris,


Touchy topic. I've had some of these conversations with some other organizers and even CFC. Whether there should be some type of "black list" of people who forfeit.
Lets do it. Whether it's public or not, whether you or someone in CFC would keep tabs on it. It's shameful behavior. And from my experience, most forfeits are not quite acceptable.
Then are those that are acceptable. Medical reasons, being stuck on a subway underground, etc... Arriving late is some people's way of life, arriving early is other people's way of life. Those who arrive late for everything are running a bigger risk of being forfeited.

---

As a player I forfeited two games in my life that I can remember. One in Greece, on the last round of a tournament, when I needed to take a cab with my luggage to the tournament hall, and a cab strike started a few hours earlier and I had been unaware of it. One in Spain when I got lost hiking in the forest and could not find my way back until several hours later by following the river into town.
In Greece it was the last round so it was a moot point, in Spain the organizer let us (I was with 3 others) back in and I played in all future rounds. In both cases... it was my fault. Dumb tourist unaware that there were disagreements between the taxi union and the government and a strike was imminent, and dumb idiots losing their trail on a hike and having to follow the river home.

I've heard some interesting reasons for forfeiting a game. Is "my alarm didn't go off" a legitimate reason? I've had people arrive at a tournament in, for example, Round 3, expecting to be paired, after playing Round 1 and forfeiting Round 2. They didn't notify me they were going to be away Round 2 and when asked, responses have varied from "something happened at home" to "but the weather was nice, we decided to go elsewhere during the morning" to "but Mr. Arbiter, my team was playing football at the world cup, I had to watch the game on TV". I am occasionally still perplexed with the kind of "reasons" people give me for having missed a game. I've more recently included in my Round 1 announcements that if people cannot make it to a Round, to request a bye so they don't forfeit a game. Some people seem to be totally clueless.
As for providing players with contact information... great but... depending on what kind of tournament it is, arbiters and organizers could be quite busy running the tournament. Phone calls for example, are just a no-go. I do check my e-mails 2 minutes before making pairings but sometimes that's all I can do.

An arbiter's / organizer's decision may very well be seen as subjective, when deciding what is acceptable and what isn't. Then there's the whole "what unverifiable excuse can i give the arbiter so he lets me play the following rounds without a fine?" approach.
True story: when running a qualifier tournament to send UT students to the PanAms (in USA) I had an adult (age around 20) tell me that he was pulling out of the competition, as we were booking flights in November, because at the end of December he had a funeral to attend.

---

Your proposed measures sound very reasonable in my opinion. I agree with a fine, and agree with a chunk of it being provided to the "winner" of the forfeit game. I don't see how it makes sense to increase the prize fund because of a forfeit. I imagine you don't want to, as an organizer / arbiter to be profiting from this situation, while also not paying someone a large sum for being the recipient of something they played no role in. I think better would be to either donate it to some chess cause or CFC, or just charge the $50 (goes to opponent) and black-list the culprit from participating for X amount of time. When it comes to "time ban" on a culprit, I'd recommend a less strict penalty. As I mention in some examples above, some people do seem genuinely clueless on how annoying forfeits are. 2nd time offenders should have it much tougher.

I am 100% against rating forfeits. Rating changes should be based on results of played games. Not "rewards" to people who sat there for 30-60 minutes doing nothing. Rating is supposed to be a measure of strength / chess ability over-the-board. It's shameful that CFC diverts its own policy away from FIDE on this point. Also, even though I can't prove it... I am fairly certain that some people gladly forfeit games when they are no longer "playing for the money" after some bad result, as an attempt to have their rating drop lower. I'd consider it sandbagging. Am I expected to, as a neutral arbiter / organizer, to decide which forfeits should be rated and which should not, based on what I think intent of the player was? Of course not! Forfeits should not be rated, and CFC Handbook clause 4.18 is regrettable.

---

The organizer / arbiter can impose penalties, educate players and dissuade them from forfeiting games. Organizers are not here to make people's lives difficult, but also not to accept when people are inconsiderate or disrespectful towards their opponents or the competition itself. Things like these will still happen, though we can work towards them happening less frequently.
However, when they do happen... I wouldn't mix things. Rating forfeits is not the answer. And as someone pointed out, some culprits will never resurface again. Good riddance.

Some people will miss a game. Some a CM title. Some will miss a norm. Someone might one day miss a trip on tie-breaks because of a forfeit. That would truly burn.
But the arbiter is not here to play God and manually wave a magic wand and favour someone, because someone else forfeited a game.


Alex Ferreira

[Erik Malmsten]

Some quick thoughts:

1) with a big tournament, I gotta focus on the players that ARE there, isn't calling the late player me kinda assisting him?...

It might be illegal to call as FIDE forfeits if 1 minute late. Surely not ALL of the organizers/arbiters are too busy 5-10 minutes after the round started. But every TD I know has a massive resistance to adding this proposed new task.

Calling the absent player(s) might wake him up or get an apology. It is helping his opponent who will know what happened right away. It is helping the tournament to know what happened, and if the player can still make it, it keeps alive his opponent's norm chances (which helps the value of the event).

[Aris Marghetis]

Hi Aris,


Touchy topic. I've had some of these conversations with some other organizers and even CFC. Whether there should be some type of "black list" of people who forfeit.
Lets do it. Whether it's public or not, whether you or someone in CFC would keep tabs on it. It's shameful behavior. And from my experience, most forfeits are not quite acceptable.
Then are those that are acceptable. Medical reasons, being stuck on a subway underground, etc... Arriving late is some people's way of life, arriving early is other people's way of life. Those who arrive late for everything are running a bigger risk of being forfeited.

---

As a player I forfeited two games in my life that I can remember. One in Greece, on the last round of a tournament, when I needed to take a cab with my luggage to the tournament hall, and a cab strike started a few hours earlier and I had been unaware of it. One in Spain when I got lost hiking in the forest and could not find my way back until several hours later by following the river into town.
In Greece it was the last round so it was a moot point, in Spain the organizer let us (I was with 3 others) back in and I played in all future rounds. In both cases... it was my fault. Dumb tourist unaware that there were disagreements between the taxi union and the government and a strike was imminent, and dumb idiots losing their trail on a hike and having to follow the river home.

I've heard some interesting reasons for forfeiting a game. Is "my alarm didn't go off" a legitimate reason? I've had people arrive at a tournament in, for example, Round 3, expecting to be paired, after playing Round 1 and forfeiting Round 2. They didn't notify me they were going to be away Round 2 and when asked, responses have varied from "something happened at home" to "but the weather was nice, we decided to go elsewhere during the morning" to "but Mr. Arbiter, my team was playing football at the world cup, I had to watch the game on TV". I am occasionally still perplexed with the kind of "reasons" people give me for having missed a game. I've more recently included in my Round 1 announcements that if people cannot make it to a Round, to request a bye so they don't forfeit a game. Some people seem to be totally clueless.
As for providing players with contact information... great but... depending on what kind of tournament it is, arbiters and organizers could be quite busy running the tournament. Phone calls for example, are just a no-go. I do check my e-mails 2 minutes before making pairings but sometimes that's all I can do.

An arbiter's / organizer's decision may very well be seen as subjective, when deciding what is acceptable and what isn't. Then there's the whole "what unverifiable excuse can i give the arbiter so he lets me play the following rounds without a fine?" approach.
True story: when running a qualifier tournament to send UT students to the PanAms (in USA) I had an adult (age around 20) tell me that he was pulling out of the competition, as we were booking flights in November, because at the end of December he had a funeral to attend.

---

Your proposed measures sound very reasonable in my opinion. I agree with a fine, and agree with a chunk of it being provided to the "winner" of the forfeit game. I don't see how it makes sense to increase the prize fund because of a forfeit. I imagine you don't want to, as an organizer / arbiter to be profiting from this situation, while also not paying someone a large sum for being the recipient of something they played no role in. I think better would be to either donate it to some chess cause or CFC, or just charge the $50 (goes to opponent) and black-list the culprit from participating for X amount of time. When it comes to "time ban" on a culprit, I'd recommend a less strict penalty. As I mention in some examples above, some people do seem genuinely clueless on how annoying forfeits are. 2nd time offenders should have it much tougher.

I am 100% against rating forfeits. Rating changes should be based on results of played games. Not "rewards" to people who sat there for 30-60 minutes doing nothing. Rating is supposed to be a measure of strength / chess ability over-the-board. It's shameful that CFC diverts its own policy away from FIDE on this point. Also, even though I can't prove it... I am fairly certain that some people gladly forfeit games when they are no longer "playing for the money" after some bad result, as an attempt to have their rating drop lower. I'd consider it sandbagging. Am I expected to, as a neutral arbiter / organizer, to decide which forfeits should be rated and which should not, based on what I think intent of the player was? Of course not! Forfeits should not be rated, and CFC Handbook clause 4.18 is regrettable.

---

The organizer / arbiter can impose penalties, educate players and dissuade them from forfeiting games. Organizers are not here to make people's lives difficult, but also not to accept when people are inconsiderate or disrespectful towards their opponents or the competition itself. Things like these will still happen, though we can work towards them happening less frequently.
However, when they do happen... I wouldn't mix things. Rating forfeits is not the answer. And as someone pointed out, some culprits will never resurface again. Good riddance.

Some people will miss a game. Some a CM title. Some will miss a norm. Someone might one day miss a trip on tie-breaks because of a forfeit. That would truly burn.
But the arbiter is not here to play God and manually wave a magic wand and favour someone, because someone else forfeited a game.


Alex Ferreira

Alex, I believe (but I am not sure) that the CFC Office no longer rates forfeit games (which would agree with you).

Thank you very much for all your comments. I am motivated by your more measured approach to multiple angles.

If you don't mind, in a few months, I'll send you my proposed new policy, for final review before making it public.

P.S. I don't like the word "blacklist". No one will be blocked from registering, just very few will post a deposit.

[Aris Marghetis]

It might be illegal to call as FIDE forfeits if 1 minute late. Surely not ALL of the organizers/arbiters are too busy 5-10 minutes after the round started. But every TD I know has a massive resistance to adding this proposed new task.

Calling the absent player(s) might wake him up or get an apology. It is helping his opponent who will know what happened right away. It is helping the tournament to know what happened, and if the player can still make it, it keeps alive his opponent's norm chances (which helps the value of the event).

Hello Erik:

1) I don't understand how it could be ILLEGAL to call. And we properly adjusted that law to 30 minutes for our event, as most Canadian events do.

2) I admit that I bristle at the rest of that paragraph. You state that "Surely not ALL ...", but if you're not one of the Arbiters there, just how do you know what we're going through at that time?
Maybe there's enough going down to explain why "every TD I know has a massive resistance to adding this proposed new task" lol

3) And I reiterate, in my opinion, the Arbiters first responsibilities are to ensure the other 50 or so games start perfectly.

4) Finally, maybe I didn't make this point before, but we banned all tech from the whole second floor of the hotel, so trying to call would pull me off the floor when every other game is going.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. They're either helping me see what adjustments to consider, and/or what already seems to be a good idea.

[Erik Malmsten]

It's for the greater good of the tournament to not have any forfeits and I think the organizer (Not the on floor Arbiter) should try everything to get absent players to the hall. If not a 30 second phone call/text then sending a volunteer to knock on their hotel room door.

I'm only talking about trying to call one or two people, if more are missing, that's a bigger problem.

Sure you can fine them - screw them - but they have already screwed your event. Call the police, amber alert, drag them into the playing hall.