new idea for (Canadian) Forfeit Losers List

[Hans Jung]

Its clear to me that due to the status (seriousness) of the Canadian Championship forfeits are unacceptable. I was checking results again and noticed that there were 4 withdrawals before the last round (or well before) and then another 4 in the last round. What you've implemented is a good start Aris but a question? Arent the withdrawals from previous rounds (6,7 and 8) even more unacceptable than last round withdrawals and shouldnt more be done about them? (part of the thinking is that those previous withdrawals had much more of an unsettling effect on the tournament)

[Ken Craft]

Has the CFC executive authorized, for the Federation's national championship, an additional fee to be charged as proposed by Aris?

[Hugh Brodie]

Its clear to me that due to the status (seriousness) of the Canadian Championship forfeits are unacceptable. I was checking results again and noticed that there were 4 withdrawals before the last round (or well before) and then another 4 in the last round. What you've implemented is a good start Aris but a question? Arent the withdrawals from previous rounds (6,7 and 8) even more unacceptable than last round withdrawals and shouldnt more be done about them? (part of the thinking is that those previous withdrawals had much more of an unsettling effect on the tournament)

Looking at the crosstable on chess-results.com, I see only one game that was a forfeit ("+" for the winner; "-" for the loser). The "-1" s represent forced byes; the two "-0" s in the early rounds were paired as "extras" with odd players in other sections who would have received byes otherwise. (I have the original scoresheets and original result sheets to verify these). The later "-0" s were legitimate withdrawls.

So only one legitimate forfeit (by Kevin Gentes in round 5) in the top section.

[Gordon Ritchie]

Aris, you have put your finger on a sore spot and twisted. Good stuff! I do not believe I have ever forfeited a game. The closest was during a weekly rated tournament at the RACC when I became quite ill just before the fifth round so dragged my sorry ass down to the tournament to apologize to my young opponent and offer to reschedule unless he wished to claim a forfeit. To his watching father's dismay, he immediately accepted the forfeit which was recorded as a rated win for him and loss for me. So be it.
On the other hand, I have many times been on the receiving end, having rejigged my other commitments to show up at the tournament hall only to have to sit on my hands for half an hour (used to be one hour; should be 15 minutes tops) unable to play in a pickup event or do anything else. I particular take exception when an overly lenient TD (Halldor take note!:) had paired me with some twit who had forfeited a previous round. This is completely unacceptable and damaging to the reputation of chess in Canada.
I like your idea of a list to track all who have forfeited without a very compelling excuse. The offender should indeed be required to make a substantial deposit to be surrendered in the event of another forfeit. No one should be paired for the next round after a forfeit---it should be regarded as a loss followed by a withdrawal.
Perhaps most important, we are dealing with a population which may not be schooled in the social niceties and think nothing of simply blowing off an opponent and the organizer. We should be doing more to educate these folks by discussing in AGMs etc.
My two cents' worth and thanks again to Aris for raising the issue with constructive proposals.

[Aris Marghetis]

Its clear to me that due to the status (seriousness) of the Canadian Championship forfeits are unacceptable. I was checking results again and noticed that there were 4 withdrawals before the last round (or well before) and then another 4 in the last round. What you've implemented is a good start Aris but a question? Arent the withdrawals from previous rounds (6,7 and 8) even more unacceptable than last round withdrawals and shouldnt more be done about them? (part of the thinking is that those previous withdrawals had much more of an unsettling effect on the tournament)

My regrets Hans, I don't get what you're getting at. I have zero issues with a bye request (0 point) or a withdrawal BEFORE pairing the next round. Then every other miss is an unwelcome forfeit, regardless of what round it occurred in. We had such a robust Zonal section (36 players, 24 titled) that, to my knowledge, it made absolutely no difference losing a few players as the long weekend progressed (except more space lol). In my mind, I am trying to "discourage" ANY FORFEIT LOSS. If I may add, forfeit losses piss me off just as much when they happen to a U1600 as to a Master.

[Aris Marghetis]

Has the CFC executive authorized, for the Federation's national championship, an additional fee to be charged as proposed by Aris?

I don't see why the CFC Executive would have any say here. I'm not even proposing an additional fee. I'm proposing a refundable deposit. If I'm missing something Ken, please email me, thanks.

[Aris Marghetis]

Looking at the crosstable on chess-results.com, I see only one game that was a forfeit ("+" for the winner; "-" for the loser). The "-1" s represent forced byes; the two "-0" s in the early rounds were paired as "extras" with odd players in other sections who would have received byes otherwise. (I have the original scoresheets and original result sheets to verify these). The later "-0" s were legitimate withdrawls.

So only one legitimate forfeit (by Kevin Gentes in round 5) in the top section.

There were multiple forfeits across the 4 sections. I believe we should fix for all sections.

[Aris Marghetis]

Aris, you have put your finger on a sore spot and twisted. Good stuff! I do not believe I have ever forfeited a game. The closest was during a weekly rated tournament at the RACC when I became quite ill just before the fifth round so dragged my sorry ass down to the tournament to apologize to my young opponent and offer to reschedule unless he wished to claim a forfeit. To his watching father's dismay, he immediately accepted the forfeit which was recorded as a rated win for him and loss for me. So be it.
On the other hand, I have many times been on the receiving end, having rejigged my other commitments to show up at the tournament hall only to have to sit on my hands for half an hour (used to be one hour; should be 15 minutes tops) unable to play in a pickup event or do anything else. I particular take exception when an overly lenient TD (Halldor take note!:) had paired me with some twit who had forfeited a previous round. This is completely unacceptable and damaging to the reputation of chess in Canada.
I like your idea of a list to track all who have forfeited without a very compelling excuse. The offender should indeed be required to make a substantial deposit to be surrendered in the event of another forfeit. No one should be paired for the next round after a forfeit---it should be regarded as a loss followed by a withdrawal.
Perhaps most important, we are dealing with a population which may not be schooled in the social niceties and think nothing of simply blowing off an opponent and the organizer. We should be doing more to educate these folks by discussing in AGMs etc.
My two cents' worth and thanks again to Aris for raising the issue with constructive proposals.

Gordon, thank you for your thorough reply, which makes sense on so many levels. I'm for sure doing this for my events from now on. I leave it up to other Organizers to ask for my list.

Thanks again to Gordon and everyone else, this exchange of ideas has been very helpful to me.

[Erik Malmsten]

There were multiple forfeits across the 4 sections. I believe we should fix for all sections.

Thanks for clarifying, Aris. I though it was 4 masters forfeiting in the top section (10% of the players), an unpredicted problem that would need to be addressed in future championships.

[Erik Malmsten]

Your proposed "solution" confirms that you are uninformed as to why any of those forfeits actually happened. But whatever, I'll put an extra 15 minutes into my deposit idea. Thanks everyone.

Thanks Aris. My "solution" of communicating to the players (email/rule sheet/signage/pre-round announcements) still works in informing the player of the forfeit deposit idea. But I guess nothing will work when a wornout player sleeps in.

[Ken Craft]

What you are missing Aris is that it is the National Championship. Depending on the individual, a refundable deposit could be a barrier to access. As well, the exec does get some say over the conditions of an event that it has awarded.

[Tom O'Donnell]

For the Closed specifically I would say $100 is a ridiculously small deposit. I would make it at least five times as much, assuming the CFC is okay with that. If I understand correctly, with your idea, the "winner" gets $50. That almost certainly doesn't cover just their per game expenses for playing in the event.

I think Tom is right, we can't rate an unplayed game, or at least we shouldn't, and I personally choose to honour that understanding. I guess every Organizer is free to decide for themselves.

Tom, thanks for your other ideas. #1 seems harsh to me, as I would like to give people a chance to change. As for #2, I believe that 10 rounds would add an extra hotel night, which I fear would drop overall numbers. I'll try my deposit idea next year, which in a nutshell is: if someone forfeited this year, they need to add a refundable deposit to their registration next year. They would lose that deposit only if they forfeited again, with at least half that deposit being gifted to the winner of the forfeit. I THINK that strikes a good situational balance, but what do YOU think of this Tom?

Thanks, Aris.

[Aris Marghetis]

What you are missing Aris is that it is the National Championship. Depending on the individual, a refundable deposit could be a barrier to access. As well, the exec does get some say over the conditions of an event that it has awarded.

Well then let's agree to disagree. I believe that forfeiting is worse than asking a forfeiter to make a refundable deposit. I am deciding to protect the players who attend more than those who forfeit.

We don't need to argue about this, it seems like just personal philosophy. I leave it up to the CFC Executive to express their disapproval. Except for the CYCC, I thought Organizers set the fees.

Thanks though for the heads-up.

[Aris Marghetis]

For the Closed specifically I would say $100 is a ridiculously small deposit. I would make it at least five times as much, assuming the CFC is okay with that. If I understand correctly, with your idea, the "winner" gets $50. That almost certainly doesn't cover just their per game expenses for playing in the event.

Thanks Tom. At first thought, $500 seems too high. I was thinking of matching the fee to file an appeal.

It would be interesting though to hear from people who agree with my deposit idea: WHAT AMOUNT?

[Ken Craft]

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to your proposal; I just believe it needs to be vetted by the National Executive.