Is There a Logical Fallacy In Chess?

[Olivier Tessier]

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[Bob Gillanders]

I know Mr. Bonham's wife, who had muscular dystrophy, passed away from complications from her disease in 2019...............

Mr. Gillanders calling me a troll from my very first post in this thread is an example of just pure nonsense.......

I am very sorry to hear about Paul's wife passing. I was at their wedding, but I too have lost touch with Paul many years ago. Condolences to Paul and the family. Losing a spouse is top of the list for adding stress to ones life.

To be clear, I did not post on this thread until you called Peter a troll. My first instinct was to not say anything given our history of misunderstandings. I should have stayed with my first instinct. I think everyone (including myself) should take a break from the keyboard and get outside for some fresh air.

Have a nice day everyone.

If you don't see me posting on chesstalk, take that as a good sign.

[Peter McKillop]

I personally like the discussion about chess rule building/history.. that being said, you're a fuckin moron if you think Carlsen never put any thought into it

Pargat never said he thought Carlsen had never put any thought into this. He said he wouldn't be surprised if Carlsen hadn't. Maybe that's too subtle a distinction for someone who has to fall back on terms like "fuckin moron." In any event, Pargat should be able to post his opinions here without having to endure verbal abuse.

[Neil Frarey]

I addressed this question earlier this year I believe. I knew Paul Bonham when he was working on system software at MIT. He and I shared an interest in chess and poker, and we had many conversations about chess variants in particular. My interest in variants mirrors his and so people think I could be him, since he isn't on this forum any more. So I guess he also used to post a lot here about chess variants.

He told me back then about this forum and warned me there was a lot of weird people here, but at that time I wasn't interested to join up. Now that my life has settled down a lot more, I have been on this forum for a few years and am seeing firsthand what Mr. Bonham meant. At one point, Mr. Bonham had a group of doctoral students at MIT regularly sending each other the latest posts on ChessTalk, with some not too complimentary comments about the intelligence of the people posting, but I only heard about that, I wasn't part of it.

I know Mr. Bonham's wife, who had muscular dystrophy, passed away from complications from her disease in 2019 and i haven't been in touch with him since then. At the time he was doing specialized software for the Drug Discovery unit at Eli Lily in Indiana, but his residence was still in New Hampshire i think, or maybe Massachusetts. I have reached out to him a few times but i get no response, and the phone number I had for him is now disconnected.

He and I did discuss Option Chess, it was his favorite variant. He said it was the best variant to reinvigorate chess at the elite levels without taking too much away from it.

My software knowledge pales compared to his, and so my attempts at creating chess variant engines have been slow and cumbersome. But yes, I am still working on an Option Chess engine among others. I could mention a few things about it, but i won't because I see no one here has any interest. There is a much better site, ironically called talkchess.com, which has very many people interested in computers, chess and chess variants. Here, people are lazier and don't want to think too hard. Plus the majority of you seem to want to turn everything into a grudge match.

So I think after seeing the reaction on this thread that I will give it up here and focus on people that are more receptive and creative. I did have 2 of our children involved before the pandemic in tournament chess (they have their mother's last name, so there probably aren't any Perrers in chess in Ontario), which of course stopped with the pandemic, and I will not be having them continue and they have both lost interest anyway. Even if they were interested, I would discourage them because of the attitudes, even some racism, that I have encountered here. Who knows, maybe even some of the reactions to my postings in this thread are caused by an undercurrent of racism, but I won't go so far as to accuse anyone of that. Whatever it is, it is really silly and frustrating. Mr. Gillanders calling me a troll from my very first post in this thread is an example of just pure nonsense and something even disturbing. I guess I am not allowed to have an opinion, and that is HIS opinion.

EDIT: by the way, I don't think I have ever mentioned Option Chess on this forum, or if I did, it was in passing. I haven't posted anything that was ABOUT Option Chess, so I don't know where Francis is getting that idea from that I am here to rehash Option Chess.

I don't think chronic chess players are all that negative about variant chess. I think they're just a touch more defensive about standard chess.

It would be prudent for the spineless lackluster CFC to at least bring forward variant chess.

[Pargat Perrer]

I personally like the discussion about chess rule building/history.. that being said, you're a moron if you think Carlsen never put any thought into it

I'm glad you like the discussion of chess rule history. Everyone talks about castling and en passant as "special" rules that were added at specific points in history, but I've never seen any mention of what I am now calling the "Phantom Check Rule" before.

You could be right, Carlsen has centered his whole life around chess, so if anyone should have considered chess rule history, he would be right up there near the top.

[Pargat Perrer]

I am very sorry to hear about Paul's wife passing. I was at their wedding, but I too have lost touch with Paul many years ago. Condolences to Paul and the family. Losing a spouse is top of the list for adding stress to ones life.

To be clear, I did not post on this thread until you called Peter a troll. My first instinct was to not say anything given our history of misunderstandings. I should have stayed with my first instinct. I think everyone (including myself) should take a break from the keyboard and get outside for some fresh air.

Have a nice day everyone.

If you don't see me posting on chesstalk, take that as a good sign.

Hey Bob, I had no idea that you knew Paul Bonham personally and even attended is wedding. If I ever do hear from him, I will forward him your condolences.

I am about to apologize to Peter for calling him a troll, since he defended my right to express an opinion.

[Pargat Perrer]

Pargat never said he thought Carlsen had never put any thought into this. He said he wouldn't be surprised if Carlsen hadn't. Maybe that's too subtle a distinction for someone who has to fall back on terms like "fuckin moron." In any event, Pargat should be able to post his opinions here without having to endure verbal abuse.

Thank you for that Peter, and I formally apologize for calling you a troll. I also apologize for my use of the word "everyone" which you were critical of.

Isn't civil discussion so much better? I certainly think so and I think you do too. The pandemic is causing all sorts of distortions, I believe. I'm as guilty as the next person.

[Pargat Perrer]

I don't think chronic chess players are all that negative about variant chess. I think they're just a touch more defensive about standard chess.

It would be prudent for the spineless lackluster CFC to at least bring forward variant chess.

That is very interesting, because I remember Mr. Bonham saying to me that chess variants, and he was specifically talking about Option Chess, shouldn't be taken as replacements for chess, but as additions to the overall concept of chess.

He always mentioned poker, a game he loved and i personally love. There is (or at least was, I don't know if it 's back after the pandemic) an annual gathering in Las Vegas for the World Series of Poker, and Mr. Bonham's vision was to see such a thing for chess. In the WSOP, there are events for every variety of poker that has become popular. That is quite a number of poker variants. So why not have, he wondered, an annual month-long "WSOC" in which every popular variant of chess was played for prizes and money?

I remember he was very critical of Maurice Ashley's "Millionaire Chess" event in Las Vegas, because it didn't include any chess variants. He said Mr. Ashley lacked a true future vision for chess. I believe he actually communicated with Mr. Ashley about such a thing, after the inaugural Millionaire Chess event fell flat. Mr. Ashley was apparently not willing to talk to Mr. Bonham about chess variants at all, if my memory is correct. And then a second Millionaire Chess event was held, and it did even worse than the first one and Mr. Bonham felt vindicated because he had told Mr. Ashley to expect worse results.


On a side note, I want to mention something I just remembered now as I was thinking about predictions from Mr. Bonham. He told me many years ago that something bad was coming from China, and he said he posted about it here on ChessTalk. Maybe some of you would remember. He said he warned everyone here (at the time, not sure exactly what year this was) that they would stop being concerned with chess because something really bad was coming from China. I thought he meant war between USA and China, and he told me in private that he meant was a disease that would hit the whole world. I think he used the word "disease" rather than "virus". I hadn't remembered that until tonight, and I remember he mentioned someone on ChessTalk named Chris was wondering what was coming from China, and Mr. Bonham said he never answered Chris, he wanted people to work it out for themselves. So I guess I was special in some way to get a more specific explanation from him. But i forgot about it until just tonight.

[Erik Malmsten]

That is very interesting, because I remember Mr. Bonham saying to me that chess variants, and he was specifically talking about Option Chess, shouldn't be taken as replacements for chess, but as additions to the overall concept of chess.

He always mentioned poker, a game he loved and i personally love. There is (or at least was, I don't know if it 's back after the pandemic) an annual gathering in Las Vegas for the World Series of Poker, and Mr. Bonham's vision was to see such a thing for chess. In the WSOP, there are events for every variety of poker that has become popular. That is quite a number of poker variants. So why not have, he wondered, an annual month-long "WSOC" in which every popular variant of chess was played for prizes and money?

One round a day tournaments like the Canadian Open have time for side events like lectures and a speed tournament. I thought it would be interesting to have a different variant tournament each day, though only chess960 (Fischer random) and Doublechess (bughouse) are currently popular. Chinese chess (Xiangqi) requires sets. Seirawan chess requires a couple of extra pieces. Hexagonal chess requires a new board and a couple of extra pieces. After a tiring day as a kid, we would also throw in a game of sacrifice (suicide) chess. Bombalot chess games were short. Kriegspiel good to display, too slow for a one-day tournament, was popular at the Scarborough Chess Club in the 1970s and Toronto Chess Club 1930s,

[J. Crowhurst]

When I was much younger, I met someone who was an aspiring tournament director. Somewhat surprisingly, he was of the opinion that if a game in one of his events went:

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Bc5 3. Qxf7 mate

he would accept that result and declare white the winner. You see, there was a rule that mate ends the game - no intervention is possible. Never mind the overriding rule that the TD is supposed to enforce the spirit and "rules" of chess. These days, that rule is written a bit differently so that the above issue is explicitly not allowed but it was not the case that the above game was possible under the rules in my youth.

Nevertheless, experienced people can get the issue wrong. Players of a certain age will remember an incident in Kapuskasing II where it was discovered after the end of the game that the "winning" player had managed it by cheating. The TD and Tournament Appeals committee declined to overturn the result on the basis the game was over. It took the National Appeals Committee to fix things.

Edidijus writes in another thread how the current regulations do not specify that WGM titleholders must be female and the FIDE rules committee is planning to fix that. Good luck trying to claim a WGM title if you are male but claiming that you qualify under the rule "today".

Had a guy from up North, directed there. This was like 1988. Comes down. This is basically, but not exactly, the situation. 1. Nf3 d5 2. Ng1 (you can probably see where this is going) e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Ng1.... I don't imagine I need finish. He claimed a draw. His position was repeated three times. I think we had to call security.

[J. Crowhurst]

This whole thread is just "Chewbacca is a wookie. Wookies live on Endor. But Ewoks come from Endor. This makes no sense! It's a fallacy!", right?

[Pargat Perrer]

This whole thread is just "Chewbacca is a wookie. Wookies live on Endor. But Ewoks come from Endor. This makes no sense! It's a fallacy!", right?

Things that make no sense are not necessarily a logical fallacy. Things that are supposed to make sense but do not, that is a logical fallacy. There is nothing about your Chewbacca statements that is supposed to make sense.

Do you know anything about logic? There are so many people these days just spouting opinions without having a clue what they are doing. Not saying you are one of them, since I know nothing about you. But I will respond to you what I wrote to 2 other people in this thread, and they haven't been worthy of an answer:

If the "phantom check" rule is not a logical fallacy, why did FIDE deem it necessary to include the rule in the first place? (FIDE Laws of Chess, rule 3.9.1).

[J. Crowhurst]

Pargat, isn't the answer just that the last move was ... Qd5+, so it's white's turn? This fallacy you claim, the way I see it doesn't exist because the position you cite as a problem (position as described) with black to move.