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Originally posted by Hans Jung
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Out of 15 World Chess Champions who won the title in match (no Botvinnik), only 3 or 4 of them made it from the 2-nd attempt (Smyslov, Spassky, Anand and maybe Kasparov). Nobody made it from the 3-rd attempt. -
Victor, where does Karpov stand in this? He got the title without the 'final" match. Botvinnik at least won the tournament.Originally posted by Victor Plotkin View Post
Capablanca-Lasker is a mystery too if to follow the Lasker's line - he resigned his title, and went into the match as the challenger.
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OK, don't argue about Karpov. So, 14 Champions and just 3 or 4 of them won the 2-nd match.
My point was that Firoujza will win his first or second match against Carlsen, but not the 3-d one.
Only Smyslov and Spassky won 2-nd match against the same opponent. Anand won against different opponent.
I can offer some friendly bet (no money) to everyone. I take Firouzja for being the next World Champion after Carlsen. You name 10 other names. Unlimited.Last edited by Victor Plotkin; Tuesday, 14th December, 2021, 07:50 AM.Comment
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Interesting statistics.
Firoujza may indeed be a future challenger, maybe even multiple times. However, since January 2010 several players have risen to the #2 or #3 spots only to drop down. This includes Anand, Kramnik, Mamedyarov, Nakamura, Grischuk, Caruana, Ding, Aronian, and Giri. Surprisingly So only made it to #4. Throughout all of that, Carlsen has floated above all others (except Anand was #1 for a few months in 2010-2011).
Check out these cool videos for visual displays of rankings over time: Top 10 Best Chess Players. FIDE Rating 1967-2020 and The history of the top chess players over time.
Last edited by Brian Clarke; Monday, 13th December, 2021, 03:30 PM.Comment
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My optimism about Firouzja is not based only on him being number 2 in the world by rating. With just 12 points lower he could be number 4 in the world, after Ding and Caruana. His age is his great advantage.Last edited by Victor Plotkin; Tuesday, 14th December, 2021, 07:51 AM.Comment
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I agree with Victor on GM Firoujza's long-term potential, He may have cultural adjustment issues when he moves to France, and this could affect his development for the next couple of years. Much will depend on the situation he is able to arrange in France. He is also moving into his late teen years, with possible distractions on the way (romantic partners, temptations on lifestyle adventures, etc), especially in a Western country, coming from the theocratic state Iran. Talent-wise, there are no issues, I think we can all agree.
I have thought that GM Nakamura was a likely future world champion, and that may still happen at some point. But he is 32 now, and with a very talented cohort to overcome, and younger stars making for a very competitive landscape.
At this juncture, I have to state, in my opinion, that GM Carlsen is the strongest player we have seen since the heyday of GM Garry Kasparov. A lot of the background and reasoning on greatest-of-all-time player rankings is personal, and subjective, since no measurement criteria were available prior to international ratings being introduced. The chessmetrics.com site does a long way to addressing much of this; it creates historical ratings for players active before FIDE introduced ratings, and then bridges the gap into modern times, but NOT to current. Jeff Sonas, its creator, stopped updating the site several years ago.
Also, do you look at peak results, or overall career results? A key question!
So, my personal top 31 goes like this, following the 2021 match:
1) Garry Kasparov; 2) Bobby Fischer; 3) Anatoly Karpov; 4) Magnus Carlsen; 5) J.R. Capablanca; 6) Mikhail Botvinnik; 7) Emanuel Lasker; 8) Mikhail Tal; 9) Vassily Smyslov; 10) Boris Spassky; 11) Alexander Alekhine; 12) Viktor Korchnoi; 13) Viswanathan Anand; 14) Tigran Petrosian; 15) Vladimir Kramnik; 16 ) Paul Keres; 17) Paul Morphy; 18) Wilhelm Steinitz; 19 ) David Bronstein; 20) Adolph Anderssen; 21) Bent Larsen; 22) Akiba Rubinstein; 23) Samuel Reshevsky; 24) Mikhail Chigorin; 25) Miguel Najdorf; 26) Max Euwe; 27) Veselin Topalov; 28) Jan Timman; 29) Howard Staunton; 30) de la Bourdonnais; 31) Reuben Fine.
I marked Alekhine down, due to his refusal to give a rematch to Capablanca, after defeating him, by 6-3 with 25 draws, in 1927. Capa had NEVER lost a game to Alekhine prior to this match. Alekhine often acted very badly, disrespecting Capa, as well as the overall game of chess, after his 1927 match win. Capa wound up with a significant plus score over Alekhine. Keres was the ONLY player with a plus score over Capablanca, and there was a 28-year age gap between them.
Modern players whose careers are still in progress can impact the list in the future!!!
Let the arguments begin!!!Comment
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I can take that - even money?Originally posted by Victor Plotkin View Post
Magnus is a beast! Hidden behind that 'cool' casual front
is a titanic chess machine. Good luck Alireza & company!Comment
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The only reason I said third attempt is that Firoujza is so young and has the ability to learn at a phenomenal pace. And of course Carlsen is a beast who rises to the challenge. By that third match Firoujza will be a monster (but then life has a way of throwing curveballs in the path of success - lets hope not).Comment
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"Friendly bet - no money". Name your 10 players.Originally posted by Francis Rodriguez View PostLast edited by Victor Plotkin; Monday, 13th December, 2021, 07:37 PM.Comment
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Victor - you are usually conservative - if you make such a strong statement about Firoujza - this says alot about Firoujza.Comment
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Great. So, I take Firouzja, you take Esipenko. Is somebody else wins - no bet.Originally posted by Neil Frarey View PostLast edited by Victor Plotkin; Tuesday, 14th December, 2021, 07:52 AM.Comment
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$1 says Carlsen beats Firou in a WCC Title match - no money, no fun!Originally posted by Victor Plotkin View PostComment
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Please, read my post. I had no intensions to bet on match Firouzja-Carlsen.
I offered a bet about the next world champion after Carlsen. I take Firouzja, you take 10 others.Last edited by Victor Plotkin; Tuesday, 14th December, 2021, 07:52 AM.Comment
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