World Championship 2021 match will start Nov. 24!!

[Francis Rodriguez]

Please, read my post. I had no intensions to bet on match Firoujza-Carlsen.

I offered a bet about the next world champion after Carlsen. I take Firoujza, you take 10 others.

OK then:) You'll have a long wait!

[Alex Ferreira]

Hello,


My question would be...why Firouzja?
Sure, he's a great player. He's only 18. He was able to bounce back after losing to Caruana in the Grand Swiss and still win the event.
Yes, he's 2800 and 2nd in the world. He seems ambitious, passionate, though some people already think of him as a bit of a Prima Donna, as far as demands and attitude go. One can argue that if you want to be the best, you ought to act like you're the best. Certainly never hurt Kasparov, and it's working for Carlsen.

Radjabov won a game against Kasparov when he was 16.
Wei Yi was the youngest player to break into 2700.
Caruana was the next best thing.
Wesley So skyrocketed past everyone when he gained 100 ELO points in about a year and crossed 2800.

All these guys were young, have incredible games, tournament victories and achievements. Everyone clamoured "here's the next World Champion!" And where are they now? Caruana is still there at the top, still very much a threat to be the next challenger. But not more than that. When these examples above established themselves firmly in the 2700+ club, the top dogs took a couple of months to take the newcomers as serious threats, developed a database of preparation for them, and stomped their progress. Now, they're just in the 2700+ club. Congrats. Still an amazing achievement.
I would still ask... why Firouzja? Why will he not be just a new addition to the club? What makes him stand apart from his peers in the top 10? Is Carlsen not on a league of his own? Even if Firouzja cements himself in second place... will he be as strong as Carlsen?

Personally... I have no idea who the next world champion will be, but my guess is that he/she hasn't entered our periphery yet...

----

A different argument I've read about which was interesting, post matches with Karjakin & Caruana, which were tied... So what is someone (like Karjakin or Caruana) beats Carlsen in a World Championship Match? --- Yes that person will be a deserved World Champion but... will he have the highest rating? Will he win tournaments with the consistency that Carlsen does? Will he be respected the same way? --- when those two matches (vs Karjakin & Caruana) were tied in classical, people were excited / pitying the field, should Carlsen have to play in a Candidates again. Nobody is worried or giving huge favouritism to anyone else winning a Candidates tournament. And for good reason: Carlsen defended his title against 4 different opponents.

Firouzja? Maybe... but to me this is just hype. Lots to prove.


Alex Ferreira

[Pargat Perrer]

OK, don't argue about Karpov. So, 14 Champions and just 3 or 4 of them won the 2-nd match.

My point was that Firoujza will win his first or second match against Carlsen, but not the 3-d one.

Only Smyslov and Spassky won 2-nd match against the same opponent. Anand won against different opponent.

I can offer some friendly bet (no money) to everyone. I take Firoujza for being the next World Champion after Carlsen. You name 10 other names. Unlimited.

Can one of the 10 names be "Nobody"? In other words, I want to bet that Carsen is in fact the last World Human Chess Champion. Ok, I put the word "Human" in there not because I think an engine will be allowed to (properly) win the World Chess Championship, but NO, because I believe the FIDE WCC is not what it says it is. Without engines it is not the WCC. So I insert the word "Human", but you can leave that out of you want.

So I am predicting Carlsen as the last Champion. I think he has one or two more title defenses in him, and by then I expect there not to be any further FIDE WCC matches in our lifetimes.

MIT is predicting the collapse of all modern civilization by 2040. I think it will be a little sooner than that.

[Victor Plotkin]

Hello,


My question would be...why Firouzja?
Sure, he's a great player. He's only 18. He was able to bounce back after losing to Caruana in the Grand Swiss and still win the event.
Yes, he's 2800 and 2nd in the world. He seems ambitious, passionate, though some people already think of him as a bit of a Prima Donna, as far as demands and attitude go. One can argue that if you want to be the best, you ought to act like you're the best. Certainly never hurt Kasparov, and it's working for Carlsen.

Radjabov won a game against Kasparov when he was 16.
Wei Yi was the youngest player to break into 2700.
Caruana was the next best thing.
Wesley So skyrocketed past everyone when he gained 100 ELO points in about a year and crossed 2800.

All these guys were young, have incredible games, tournament victories and achievements. Everyone clamoured "here's the next World Champion!" And where are they now? Caruana is still there at the top, still very much a threat to be the next challenger. But not more than that. When these examples above established themselves firmly in the 2700+ club, the top dogs took a couple of months to take the newcomers as serious threats, developed a database of preparation for them, and stomped their progress. Now, they're just in the 2700+ club. Congrats. Still an amazing achievement.
I would still ask... why Firouzja? Why will he not be just a new addition to the club? What makes him stand apart from his peers in the top 10? Is Carlsen not on a league of his own? Even if Firouzja cements himself in second place... will he be as strong as Carlsen?

Personally... I have no idea who the next world champion will be, but my guess is that he/she hasn't entered our periphery yet...

----

A different argument I've read about which was interesting, post matches with Karjakin & Caruana, which were tied... So what is someone (like Karjakin or Caruana) beats Carlsen in a World Championship Match? --- Yes that person will be a deserved World Champion but... will he have the highest rating? Will he win tournaments with the consistency that Carlsen does? Will he be respected the same way? --- when those two matches (vs Karjakin & Caruana) were tied in classical, people were excited / pitying the field, should Carlsen have to play in a Candidates again. Nobody is worried or giving huge favouritism to anyone else winning a Candidates tournament. And for good reason: Carlsen defended his title against 4 different opponents.

Firouzja? Maybe... but to me this is just hype. Lots to prove.


Alex Ferreira

An excellent post. Thank you.

[Erik Malmsten]

At this juncture, I have to state, in my opinion, that GM Carlsen is the strongest player we have seen since the heyday of GM Garry Kasparov. A lot of the background and reasoning on greatest-of-all-time player rankings is personal, and subjective, since no measurement criteria were available prior to international ratings being introduced. The chessmetrics.com site does a long way to addressing much of this; it creates historical ratings for players active before FIDE introduced ratings, and then bridges the gap into modern times, but NOT to current. Jeff Sonas, its creator, stopped updating the site several years ago.

Also, do you look at peak results, or overall career results? A key question!

So, my personal top 31 goes like this, following the 2021 match:
1) Garry Kasparov; 2) Bobby Fischer; 3) Anatoly Karpov; 4) Magnus Carlsen; 5) J.R. Capablanca; 6) Mikhail Botvinnik; 7) Emanuel Lasker; 8) Mikhail Tal; 9) Vassily Smyslov; 10) Boris Spassky; 11) Alexander Alekhine; 12) Viktor Korchnoi; 13) Viswanathan Anand; 14) Tigran Petrosian; 15) Vladimir Kramnik; 16 ) Paul Keres; 17) Paul Morphy; 18) Wilhelm Steinitz; 19 ) David Bronstein; 20) Adolph Anderssen; 21) Bent Larsen; 22) Akiba Rubinstein; 23) Samuel Reshevsky; 24) Mikhail Chigorin; 25) Miguel Najdorf; 26) Max Euwe; 27) Veselin Topalov; 28) Jan Timman; 29) Howard Staunton; 30) de la Bourdonnais; 31) Reuben Fine.

I marked Alekhine down, due to his refusal to give a rematch to Capablanca, after defeating him, by 6-3 with 25 draws, in 1927. Capa had NEVER lost a game to Alekhine prior to this match. Alekhine often acted very badly, disrespecting Capa, as well as the overall game of chess, after his 1927 match win. Capa wound up with a significant plus score over Alekhine. Keres was the ONLY player with a plus score over Capablanca, and there was a 28-year age gap between them.

Modern players whose careers are still in progress can impact the list in the future!!!

Let the arguments begin!!!

I would place Karpov and Morphy lower and Alekhine and Anand higher, but what do I know, I'm not a grandmaster.

I think one has to look at why Alekhine was hostile towards Capa. Capa didn't give him a chance for the title until he raised a large prize fund. Alekhine worked hard for several years touring the world giving simults. It was easy for Capa to call for a rematch as he had financial backers. Alekhine worked hard on his chess, developing openings and deep combos, while Capa was lazy, winning on talent alone.

It's hard to compare players of different eras as different skills were required, and different time controls. Today requires preparation with databases of all previous eras' games, computer opening analysis and endgame tables. Tournaments are played much more often and better physical health is also required. Some players had the benefit of living in a city with constant high level competition, coaching and societal support. But today's top grandmasters play at a higher level than historical world champions.

A Computer Analysis of World Chess Champions (2019) Spanish study using Stockfish 10, 64 bit. at site thinkmind.org

Least % of "errors" (not choosing top computer line)
1 Carlsen
2 Caruana
3 Karjakin
4 Leko
5 Kramnik
6 Anand
7 Kasparov
8 Aronian
9 Kamsky
10 Gelfand
11 Topolov
12 Capablanca
13 Fischer
14 Karpov
15 Korchnoi
16 Petrosian
17 Svidler
18 Spassky
19 Timman
20 Alekhine

Least number of blunders
1 Caruana
2 Carlsen
3 Karjakin
4 Leko
5 Gelfand
6 Anand
7 Kramnik
8 Karpov
9 Kasparov
10 Botvinnik
11 Topolov
12 Tal
13 Petrosian
14 Lasker
15 Spassky
16 Fischer
17 Smyslov
18 Bronstein
19 Gunsberg
20 Capablanca
21 Korchnoi
22 Janowsky
23 Timman
24 Alekhine
25 Kamsky

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

[QUOTE=Alex Ferreira;n216841A different argument I've read about which was interesting, post matches with Karjakin & Caruana, which were tied... So what is someone (like Karjakin or Caruana) beats Carlsen in a World Championship Match? --- Yes that person will be a deserved World Champion but... will he have the highest rating? Will he win tournaments with the consistency that Carlsen does? Will he be respected the same way? --- when those two matches (vs Karjakin & Caruana) were tied in classical, people were excited / pitying the field, should Carlsen have to play in a Candidates again. Nobody is worried or giving huge favouritism to anyone else winning a Candidates tournament. And for good reason: Carlsen defended his title against 4 different opponents.[/QUOTE]


I thought similar think about Nepo (before his collapse) - would he be a "real" champion? Yeah, it is very tough when your opponent is the GOAT. It would have been as with Kramnik vs Kasparov. Yea, he beat him BUT blah blah.

We are lucky to live in the age when the GOAT roams :)

Firouzja - he still has many obstacles to pass before becoming a challenger.

[Neil Frarey]

Carlsen Might Only Defend Title Vs. Firouzja

https://www.chess.com/news/view/magn...ireza-firouzja

[Hans Jung]

Shocking news dont you think? Apparently it says that Magnus will not defend his title next time unless he plays Firoujza! Is that just his thoughts of the moment??

[Hans Jung]

and why is the next match being held early?? (early 2023?)

[Bob Armstrong]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT1alXooLsq0f3AxjT3Mp0AIft9CDWDpdsTkY7i5qFsC7-Cq8Id1oKy9qQDfsTucNrzoShXF9Ky_GnSEv-63eUtilU6onLXtAj7T5xW_Vsh1OaIW-87EiPN8i8_L07YL8zVpcJKk3Yh-l-uapFaL9gXqWRWlV5uCKy0UF3hJm3dW1DDx7S_6SA-5SFKok2t8FOKR15XudVAEoI-Q8Ok

Don't know if this link to Mangus' statement has already been posted, but just in case........

Bob A

[Victor Plotkin]

I hope that this is just empty words or attempt to increase the prize fund or something similar.

However, very possible that this is his real intention. A few immediate conclusions in this case:

1. Likely, the worst champion's decision since Kasparov time and the second worst in modern chess history.

2. Maybe for Firouzja it's better to finish second in candidates and to play against the winner of the candidates and not against Carlsen. More chances.

3. Now I don't offer my bet (F. against 10 others) anymore. Players like Caruana, Nepo, Karjakin, Duda, Radjabov or 2 others in candidates have a lot of chances to become a world champion.

4. Only F. can save the chess world from another long period of uncertainty (similar to Kasparov time).

5. Looks like Magnus shares my opinion about F. A very high opinion.

[Pargat Perrer]

We are lucky to live in the age when the GOAT roams :)

I disagree with this assessment. Firstly, because Carlsen seems to play much like the Stockfish engine. He grinds away in endgames gathering miniscule advantages. Although he does this, he is of course not nearly as good as Stockfish, and so GOAT should really be GHOAT.

Secondly, we have AlphaZero which is very different from other chess engines including Stockfish. With AZ, we are seeing new paradigms in chess that are still being worked out. One of these is the willingness, in certain board situations, to go down in material. Exactly what those "board situations" are is still puzzling even to GMs.

I just watched the Youtube video of Lee Sedol's loss to AlphaGo in the game of Go. Before the match, the Go world champion whose fame in Go mirrors Carlsen's in chess, predicted he expected to win all 5 games of the match, although he did admit to not knowing the latest progress with AlphaGo over the previous 3 months. Then the games begin and he is amazed at the engine's play and move by move his face shows that he has more than met his match. By the end of the 3rd game, when it was 3-0 for AlphaGo, Sedol was a picture of misery. He won the 4th game due to a bug in the engine, by which time he realized that that was all he should expect from this match, and then he did lose the 5th game. He as now retired from Go at a very young age, probably realizing that there is nothing he or perhaps any human can do to stop the progress of the engines and more importantly that there is nothing new any humans can contribute to Go. I think he was quoted as saying something like that when he retired.

And this is where we are with Carlsen and chess, but people just want to pretend it isn't so. Personally I think the clash of human personalities in chess is much more interesting in Rapid chess. Since it is going to be decided by human blunders anyway, much preferable to see it in much shorter time controls.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

we have AlphaZero

We've cars, planes, and even rockets, however people still love running and competing. Engines have own championships, human own.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

[QUOTE=Pargat Perrer;n216872] Since it is going to be decided by human blunders anyway/QUOTE]

A strange appreciation of the game to look for blunders.

[Brad Thomson]

Play Fischerandom with the players not knowing the permutation until they sit down at the board and you will take computers out of the game and return it completely to humans. The problem with chess is the fact that the starting position never changes, hence computers play more and more and humans play less and less.