For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

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  • #61
    Truth Destroys Myths

    Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
    Muller is calling for honesty and good science despite his admitted bias. He wants the truth wherever it may lead. For that, I can admire him.
    Truth usually destroys myths. Here are some myths about the hockey stick story :

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...-hockey-stick/

    ADD. For those who hate clicking (let's not wonder why you're surfing, then), here is the 4th myth :

    MYTH #4: Errors in the "Hockey Stick" undermine the conclusion that late 20th century hemispheric warmth is anomalous.
    This statement embraces at least two distinct falsehoods. The first falsehood holds that the “Hockey Stick” is the result of one analysis or the analysis of one group of researchers (i.e., that of Mann et al, 1998 and Mann et al, 1999). However, as discussed in the response to Myth #1 above, the basic conclusions of Mann et al (1998,1999) are affirmed in multiple independent studies. Thus, even if there were errors in the Mann et al (1998) reconstruction, numerous other studies independently support the conclusion of anomalous late 20th century hemispheric-scale warmth.

    The second falsehood holds that there are errors in the Mann et al (1998, 1999) analyses, and that these putative errors compromise the “hockey stick” shape of hemispheric surface temperature reconstructions. Such claims seem to be based in part on the misunderstanding or misrepresentation by some individuals of a corrigendum that was published by Mann and colleagues in Nature. This corrigendum simply corrected the descriptions of supplementary information that accompanied the Mann et al article detailing precisely what data were used. As clearly stated in the corrigendum, these corrections have no influence at all on the actual analysis or any of the results shown in Mann et al (1998). Claims that the corrigendum reflects any errors at all in the Mann et al (1998) reconstruction are entirely false.

    False claims of the existence of errors in the Mann et al (1998) reconstruction can also be traced to spurious allegations made by two individuals, McIntyre and McKitrick (McIntyre works in the mining industry, while McKitrick is an economist). The false claims were first made in an article (McIntyre and McKitrick, 2003) published in a non-scientific (social science) journal “Energy and Environment” and later, in a separate “Communications Arising” comment that was rejected by Nature based on negative appraisals by reviewers and editor [as a side note, we find it peculiar that the authors have argued elsewhere that their submission was rejected due to 'lack of space'. Nature makes their policy on such submissions quite clear: "The Brief Communications editor will decide how to proceed on the basis of whether the central conclusion of the earlier paper is brought into question; of the length of time since the original publication; and of whether a comment or exchange of views is likely to seem of interest to nonspecialist readers. Because Nature receives so many comments, those that do not meet these criteria are referred to the specialist literature." Since Nature chose to send the comment out for review in the first place, the "time since the original publication" was clearly not deemed a problematic factor. One is logically left to conclude that the grounds for rejection were the deficiencies in the authors' arguments explicitly noted by the reviewers]. The rejected criticism has nonetheless been posted on the internet by the authors, and promoted in certain other non-peer-reviewed venues (see this nice discussion by science journalist David Appell of a scurrilous parroting of their claims by Richard Muller in an on-line opinion piece).

    The claims of McIntyre and McKitrick, which hold that the “Hockey-Stick” shape of the MBH98 reconstruction is an artifact of the use of series with infilled data and the convention by which certain networks of proxy data were represented in a Principal Components Analysis (”PCA”), are readily seen to be false , as detailed in a response by Mann and colleagues to their rejected Nature criticism demonstrating that (1) the Mann et al (1998) reconstruction is robust with respect to the elimination of any data that were infilled in the original analysis, (2) the main features of the Mann et al (1998) reconstruction are entirely insensitive to whether or not proxy data networks are represented by PCA, (3) the putative ‘correction’ by McIntyre and McKitrick, which argues for anomalous 15th century warmth (in contradiction to all other known reconstructions), is an artifact of the censoring by the authors of key proxy data in the original Mann et al (1998) dataset, and finally, (4) Unlike the original Mann et al (1998) reconstruction, the so-called ‘correction’ by McIntyre and McKitrick fails statistical verification exercises, rendering it statistically meaningless and unworthy of discussion in the legitimate scientific literature.

    The claims of McIntyre and McKitrick have now been further discredited in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, in a paper to appear in the American Meteorological Society journal, “Journal of Climate” by Rutherford and colleagues (2004) [and by yet another paper by an independent set of authors that is currently "under review" and thus cannot yet be cited--more on this soon!]. Rutherford et al (2004) demonstrate nearly identical results to those of MBH98, using the same proxy dataset as Mann et al (1998) but addressing the issues of infilled/missing data raised by Mcintyre and McKitrick, and using an alternative climate field reconstruction (CFR) methodology that does not represent any proxy data networks by PCA at all.
    Please have a look at the URLs in this passage, and also the list of references at the end. It might be useful, at least as an argument regarding Paul Beckwith's claim that the description of the McIntyre and McKitrick affair might rely on outdated information. Also, let's not forget that these new references are dated from 2004, and might be themselves a bit old. Science progresses a lot in five years, maybe six or seven, if we take into account publication delay.
    Last edited by Benoit St-Pierre; Tuesday, 6th October, 2009, 11:27 AM.

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    • #62
      Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

      Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
      If you do some reading on this topic, you will start to get angry about the level of manipulation of the truth that is taking place on behalf of the left wing loonies who are running with this nonsensical man made climate change idea.

      Vladimir Drkulec
      To quote somebody, "the first casualty of war is truth!" I am regularly and routinely appalled at how often both sides of almost any public debate distort and exaggerate the "facts" to prove their point.

      Let's hope for some honest debate and good science at the upcoming global conference in Copenhagen in December. But I think if you are waiting for a global consensus or undeniable proof before taking action, then it will be too late.:o

      One final thought: they recently discovered some bones from a prehistoric woman, supposedly 4.4(?) million years ago. We all seem to accept this dating as reliable. Really? Just how do they test the accuracy of carbon dating science beyond several hundred years? Millions of years? Reality check!
      Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Tuesday, 6th October, 2009, 01:10 AM.

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      • #63
        Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

        Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post
        One final thought: they recently discovered some bones from a prehistoric woman, supposedly 4.4(?) million years ago. We all seem to accept this dating as reliable. Really? Just how do they test the accuracy of carbon dating science beyond several hundred years? Millions of years? Reality check!
        They don't use carbon dating at all for such periods. They date the surrounding rocks using other radioactive isotopes with longer half lives.

        The "know nothingism" accepted and even boasted of in our society is sad indeed. There is no excuse not to educate yourself about these things, and you can start at talkorigins.org.

        Or you could go to your nearby public library.

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        • #64
          Clean, Clean Coal

          Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
          Probably the current government doesn't have a great record on the environment. Their Western power base, specifically Alberta, has the tar sands, natural gas and oil, as well as coal. Lots of coal. I invest in one company which has lots of thermal coal in Alberta and won't be voting for political parties which would tax it. Last I heard, something like 80% of Alberta's electricity is generated from coal. Two kinds of coal Alberta has are Thermal coal used for electricity and Metalurgical coal used in the production of such things as steel.
          More on coal ash has surfaced recently, don't worry, just in the news :

          http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...2.shtml?tag=co

          I wonder how you can get competitive when you're stuck with 130 Million Tons of Waste.


          PS: A good trick would be to stop investing in these companies.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Truth Destroys Myths

            Thanks for your post Benoit, you saved me the work of responding to Vlads latest ramble about the hockey stick. He seems to think that the entire framework for climate change research is based on one study of a few tree rings! I know that what he was claiming was refuted many years ago; I was just waiting to see how big a hole he dug for himself. It is typical of climate change deniers, also known as luddite, flat-earthers, status-quos, puppets of the oil industry, right-wing neo-conservative, backward anti-environmentalists to always pull out this hockey stick graph and state falsehoods about it.

            I quote Vlad in his response to my post "If you want to continue flogging this dead horse I have a more detailed critique that I can go over but this line we are analyzing is easily refuted and has been given up for dead by most of the global warming alarmists.
            I will be kind and assume that you were simply unaware of this development but I have been down this road before and can show a pattern of similar shoddy science by the alarmists which can only be ascribed to intentional dishonesty or gross incompetence."

            Vlad, I will also be kind and assume that you were simply unaware of the developments since the original Mann work.

            Vlad, what is your background. I am assuming you have a science background but if that is the case why are you always referring to non-scientific work from people like McKitrick and McIntyre instead of peer-reviewed papers from climate scientists?

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            • #66
              Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

              Originally posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
              They don't use carbon dating at all for such periods. They date the surrounding rocks using other radioactive isotopes with longer half lives.

              The "know nothingism" accepted and even boasted of in our society is sad indeed. There is no excuse not to educate yourself about these things, and you can start at talkorigins.org.

              Or you could go to your nearby public library.
              Thanks Ed. I read the article you suggested, and now I know a little about Radiometric Dating and Biostratigraphy! After I posted, I suspected that Carbon Dating was likely not the appropriate scientific field.:o The article does point out that the science continues to develop, and that the 4.4 million years is obviously an estimate. I wouldn't be surprised if the estimate was off by a million years or more! But so what, it's the best guessimate we have, so work with it!;)

              They named her Ardi, short for her species name "Ardipithecus Ramidus". It is when they describe her as a "small brained, 110 lb female" that I wonder how they came up with that!

              The phone rang, and I've lost my train of thought. But back to the original debate, I am still inclined to believe that global warming is a real threat. There is a large body of work in support of the global warming theory, finding a few problems with this or that study is not sufficient to negate all of it. You must always read these articles with a "grain of salt" and consider the source!
              Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Tuesday, 6th October, 2009, 12:42 PM.

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              • #67
                Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                Vlad, as I explained in my original posting this warming is significant since it takes 5x more energy to heat sea water than it does to heat soil (heat capacity of water = 4.1813 J/gK divided by heat capacity for soil = 0.800 J/gK = 5.23). It takes 4x more energy to heat sea water than it does to heat air (heat capacity of water divided by heat capacity for air = 1.0035 J/gK = 4.17

                If you are so underwhelmed by an ocean rise of 0.6 degrees C then why are you so overwhelmed by a global average rise of 0.8 degrees C over the last 100 years. You are obviously overwhelmed by this since you fight tooth and nail to show that it is not happening even though peer-reviewed papers by scientist around the world say it is happening. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in your arguments, but that is expected in emotion or faith based arguments as opposed to rational, logical arguments.

                Regarding your fruit question above, I hope that you don't think that one guy dipped a thermometer in the ocean somewhere 130 years ago and someone else did a similar thing this July. I suggest that you read the original paper to get the details on the measurements. As you know, there are many indirect methods available to climatologists to measure temperatures. The nice thing is that you do not have to trust any one, you can usually find a second method that is totally independent from the first to get a handle on the temperature.

                While we are talking about global changes to the oceans, do you realize that the oceans have undergone acidification over the last century. The pH level was basically stable for 650,000 years however in the last 100 years it has dropped by 0.1 pH units. Since you will probably again be underwhelmed please recall that pH is a logarithmic scale so the drop is actually by 26% (10 exp 0.1 = 1.258 or 25.8% change). I am sure that you will ask your fruit question again; just google ocean pH to get all the measurement details.

                Why is the ocean pH dropping? The reason is that roughly 50% of the CO2 entering the atmosphere is being absorbed by the ocean (ocean is a huge sink of CO2). The problem is that as the oceans warm they absorb less and less CO2. How does the CO2 get into the oceans? When rain falls it absorbs the gas becoming slightly acidic (hydrolysis) and plant life in the ocean (mostly phytoplankton near the ocean surface) absorbs the CO2 and then dies and sinks to the bottom or is injested by animals.

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                • #68
                  Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                  Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post
                  One final thought: they recently discovered some bones from a prehistoric woman, supposedly 4.4(?) million years ago. We all seem to accept this dating as reliable. Really? Just how do they test the accuracy of carbon dating science beyond several hundred years? Millions of years? Reality check!
                  They showed that on TV a couple of weeks ago. It fossilized as it died. It was about a half hour program. They did x-rays, cat scans, MRI's etc. on it. She even had a long tail.

                  She was young. They figure she might have been a tree dweller but because of broken wrist was not able to climb the trees and had to get food on the ground. They thought she went to a lake for a drink, fell in and ended up covered by mud at the bottom of the lake. The weight of the mud flattened her and that's how the entire body was found. They knew the bone was badly broken and saw the new bone which was forming around the break which didn't heal properly. That's how well preserved it was.

                  I forget which channel I saw that on, but it was interesting.
                  Gary Ruben
                  CC - IA and SIM

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                  • #69
                    Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                    Guys like Lowell Green are very opinionated (like chess players) and have a large following. I think it is important to talk to them from time to time just to try to get through to their audience. Personally, I have talked to him on a few occasions. In terms of who is winning/losing the battle, it is more like a war. Battles are won and lost but I can assure you that if the Arctic ice is all gone by say 2015 in the summer the battle will be over since this would be the first time in a million years or so that there was no ice up there, and since all the heat absorbed in polar oceans (much higher due to reduced albedo) would be used to heat seawater as opposed to melting ice so warming would significantly accelerate. Google NSIDC (National Snow and Ice Data Center) and look at some of their plots on ice coverage.

                    I liked your methane story and the beer connection. Reminds me of grad school when I did some work looking at the spectroscopy of tritiated water. The joke was that lots of beer needed to be consumed after working with tritium in the lab to ensure that anything leaked would quickly pass out of your body.

                    As a greenhouse gas, methane is a large concern since there is lots of it trapped in the frozen tundra/permafrost and in the clathrates on the ocean floor. Anywhere there is biological decomposition in the absense of oxygen (anaerobic decomposition) methane (CH4) is produced. Anywhere there is biological decomposition in the presence of oxygen (aerobic decomposition) CO2 is produced. Its effect on warming is about 21x that of CO2 on a molecule by molecule basis.

                    I remember a close friend in highschool who put pig manure in a bell jar to produce methane for a science experiment. The tube coming out of the jar clogged, pressure built up, and the top plug shot off, covering him with pig manure. Class was starting, so he had no time to go home so what he did was put his raincoat on over his "manured" clothes and sat in class well away from the rest of the students...

                    Since you mentioned Greenpeace they do have some interesting events...
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOikDujAdTc

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                    • #70
                      Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                      I have seen articles that maintain that Methane is a much bigger danger to the planet than CO2, and it is being released at an accelerating rate ( you say: " Its effect on warming is about 21x that of CO2 on a molecule by molecule basis." )

                      If Methane is generally naturally being introduced into the atmosphere, what can be done about this? I have heard that slowing global warming on the man-made CO2 front will slow the melting of the ice caps, and is about the only way to manage the release of natural methane.

                      Are we just in big trouble because of methane?

                      Bob

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                      • #71
                        Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                        Originally posted by Paul Beckwith View Post
                        I liked your methane story and the beer connection. Reminds me of grad school when I did some work looking at the spectroscopy of tritiated water. The joke was that lots of beer needed to be consumed after working with tritium in the lab to ensure that anything leaked would quickly pass out of your body.
                        What I wrote really happened. I recall the first time I got Mercaptan on myself. I took public transportation home. You might wonder how that went. Let's just say it went. :)
                        Gary Ruben
                        CC - IA and SIM

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                          I want to be perfectly clear that the "battle" I was referring to in my post above is the one that Gary discussed in his post, namely the "battle" between the yes and no side for the public recognition of the issue of climate change. When I say the battle will be over, I am talking about this public recognition for action to mitigate the change.

                          I quote from a link that has a good description of all the major greenhouse gases (although Vlad might disagree about CO2 and methane): "Methane is an extremely effective absorber of radiation, though its atmospheric concentration is less than CO2 and its lifetime in the atmosphere is brief (10-12 years), compared to some other greenhouse gases (such as CO2, N2O, CFCs). Methane(CH4) has both natural and anthropogenic sources. It is released as part of the biological processes in low oxygen environments, such as in swamplands or in rice production (at the roots of the plants). Over the last 50 years, human activities such as growing rice, raising cattle, using natural gas and mining coal have added to the atmospheric concentration of methane. Direct atmospheric measurement of atmospheric methane has been possible since the late 1970s and its concentration rose from 1.52 ppmv in 1978 by around 1%/year to 1990, since when there has been little sustained increase. The current atmospheric concentration is ~1.77 ppmv, and there is no scientific consensus on why methane has not risen much since around 1990."
                          http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html

                          A human tendency is to try to linearize everything, i.e. if something is increasing at a certain rate like global temperature we tend to assume that it will continue at roughly the same rate. However, the climate system is highly nonlinear. What is most worrying is that we could cross some threshold and find out that in a very short time our world has changed. Malcolm Gladwell's book "The tipping point" covers this type of feedback effect well. The probability of these events occuring is low, but the implications to our way of life if they happen are high so the risk (product of probability and implication) could be substantial. Some of these events include:

                          1) Ocean warming melting frozen clathrates on ocean floor leading to enormous emissions of methane.

                          2) Methane stored in northern hemisphere tundra/permafrost released due to thawing, mostly in Canadian north and Siberia.

                          3) Rain forest collapse in South America due mostly to lack of rainfall releasing stored carbon that would dwarf any human emissions.

                          4) Shutting down of Atlantic ocean thermo-haline circulation (THC) resulting in regional cooling of Western Europe (by 5 degrees C or so within a year to decade of circulation collapse) and regional cooling of eastern North America by 3 degrees C or so.

                          5) Sufficient warming of the oceans to initiate stratification such that phytoplankton can no longer produce in the warm upper layers (read paleobiologist Peter Ward's book "Under a Green Sky" if you want more details)

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                          • #73
                            Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                            Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
                            Revenue neutral for whom? The B.C. government?

                            A sugar company employs a lot of people and uses an awesome amount of natural gas. At some point the equipment ages, wages get high and the carbon tax is cutting into profits. It might make more sense to expand one of the other facilities in another province to get away from the Carbon Tax.

                            I can't see how companies can keep a competitive equilibrium with similar companies, in other provinces, who don't have to pay a Carbon Tax. Not to mention the effect it has on the share price.

                            I am always wary of charts which look like a hockey stick. They are said to have gone "parabolic". It normally turns out to be a bubble which bursts, returning the trace around the base line.

                            The secret to successful prediction of doom and gloom is never to put an exact date on it. However, get the money up front. :)
                            Yes Revenue Neutral to the Government. They don't make any extra cash. What this company should do when the going to replace equipment is look for the most energy efficient equipment out there... not just the cheapest at purchase. They would probably lower their over all tax burden if they changed to energy efficient equipment.

                            The largest change I saw was that people tended to reconsider purchasing gas guzzling pickups/SUV's and buy more eco-friendly vehicles. I would support a tax break for companies that absolutely need these vehicles to run, but for people who use them as status symbols, they deserve to pay more.

                            doom and gloom prediction is always profitable... just look at TV evangelists! I'm sure that there is an extra hot place in hell waiting for those charlatans... About 10 years ago I was the shop foreman for a millwork company and I had one of these 'chicken little' environmentalists working with me... she said that she went to a 'conference' that the speaker stated that 75% of the air was produced by the Amazon rain forest... She then stated that 90% of this rain forest had been logged... I looked at her and couldn't believe that she was so gullible. I asked her if she could still breathe with over 65% less air! Of course this 'environmental conference' was put on by David Suzuki...

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                            • #74
                              Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                              How is the carbon tax working out? Is the carbon tax changing peoples behaviour yet, from what I recall it is about $25 per tonne of CO2? Is it just on fossil fuels or is it also on electricity, and do you know how much it has raised the price of gasoline? How is it enforced?

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                              • #75
                                Re: For Those Who Enjoy Discussing Climate Change..... Not Chess Related

                                Originally posted by Paul Beckwith View Post
                                How is the carbon tax working out? Is the carbon tax changing peoples behaviour yet, from what I recall it is about $25 per tonne of CO2? Is it just on fossil fuels or is it also on electricity, and do you know how much it has raised the price of gasoline? How is it enforced?
                                Many of the companies which use a lot of energy are shut down to some extent from what I understand. Particularly in forestry and paper. The U.S. has been offering lower prices and the markets aren't there for as much of the product.

                                B.C. has also lowered their royalty rates to try to get drillers to drill for natural gas. Shale gas is now the treat of the week. The U.S. has increased their reserves dramatically now they can more easily unlock the shale gas. It cuts down the amount of natural gas they have to import from Canada. Quebec also has an undetermined amount of shale gas so in the future eastern Canada might be able to use natural gas which doesn't have to be transported for Western Canada or the U.S. It costs a lot of money to drill a deep well, so you need an economical price for the commodity and a royalty rate which allows a reasonable enough return to entice investors to put their money into the company and projects. It seems to me to really be environment friendly B.C. would have to discourage the exploitation of their natural resources, would they not?

                                B.C. is having problems with property tax revolts by some major industrial companies. I think the government is looking into reforms in voting for local elections.

                                Here's an article for a B.C. newspaper which illustrates how serious the matter has become.

                                http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver.../63620672.html
                                Gary Ruben
                                CC - IA and SIM

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