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I like poker a lot, and play it regularly. However, the tournaments you see on TV are dumbed down versions of poker; really just lotto with cards, imo.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
I like poker a lot, and play it regularly. However, the tournaments you see on TV are dumbed down versions of poker; really just lotto with cards, imo.
Yes, the lotto has millions, but charges what, $1 per ticket? And there's no skill whatsoever AND you don't get to play any kind of game.
The tournaments on TV are exclusively No Limit (Hold Em, Omaha, HORSE). No Limit is a dumbed down version of Limit, so I'm assuming you play Limit?
Unfortunately, good Limit tournaments are hard to find these days.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Yes, the lotto has millions, but charges what, $1 per ticket? And there's no skill whatsoever AND you don't get to play any kind of game.
The tournaments on TV are exclusively No Limit (Hold Em, Omaha, HORSE). No Limit is a dumbed down version of Limit, so I'm assuming you play Limit?
Unfortunately, good Limit tournaments are hard to find these days.
Not to derail the thread but..
1. I have never heard of No Limit HORSE (HORSE is always limit), and very rarely No Limit Omaha (its almost always pot limit).
2. Suggesting that no limit is a dumbed down version of Limit doesn't make any sense to me for pretty obvious reasons. You have at most 3 options at any point in limit, the fact you can bet-size in NL giving you more options makes it much more complicated.
I'm not that keen on the entry but if you want to play to have to pay.
One thing I did see strange is only two large class prizes.
They could have broke the $1500 a bit better to give 5 Prizes.
ie $500, $400 $300 $200 $100 then everyone has a chance to almost win back their entry.
It would have been a fair breakdown The way it is now a lucky class player can win big money and really do they deserve that big prize for being lucky?
Alex, you are right that class players should not look to chess as a way of making money. But you are in the minority in being willing to spend well over a hundred dollars just to experience a chess tournament with GMs and IMs.
All you need do is look at poker to see what happens when you charge very high entry fees BUT give everyone a decent chance to win. Not an equal chance, because there is skill in poker, but a DECENT chance. When people get a wiff of a decent chance to win BIG money, they will pay high entry fees IN THE THOUSANDS! That is, they'll pay THOUSANDS of dollars in entry fees and they'll do it by the THOUSANDS. Result: poker mania and TV coverage.
Chess is poker's poor cousin, and will remain that way. It's good that you and others will still devote your time and money to chess. But just because you will do it, don't generalize and believe that many, many others will do it. Remember poker.... THOUSANDS. Chess.... dozens.
PeeBee,
No wonder you wanted Chess960 so much that you correlated it like Poker.
You wanted to start a game with different cards (like in poker) and in different initial positions (like in chess960). You claimed to be good a chess organizer! why don't you promote chess960 and become an ambassador to it?
Chess is already a very complex game to master, why do we have to make it even more complicated with another variant. For a change maybe or another way to beat the unbeatable? At the end, you will be playing it in the standard way.
Oh well, the moderator(s) should be wise enough to filter and delete responses to thread not directly related to the topic being discussed but instead start a new topic.
Chesstalk is about discussions and forums dedicated to the promotion of chess.
No Poker promotions pls........ discuss it in other related and appropriate websites!
You wanted the World Open Class Prizes (also 10 very attractive Class Prizes in every Section) to be similar to the Canadian Open 2010? In your dreams! Go and play at the World Open with your current rating and I will warn you now and will soon realized that you are playing in a poll or group of sand-baggers! Try it if you don't believe me. But then again, the entry fee there is $400 and don't forget to include you other expenses when to calculate your Total Expenses after the tournament. You should be looking at $1000 in your trip.
Of course it’s a dream that a World Open like tournament is held in Canada. That would be quite a lot of fun aiming for $10,000 and with only $400 for an entry fee, much more goes back to the class prizes thus making the world open a great tournament. Actually $1000 wouldn’t be so bad for that. But there’s other problems as for Canadians it’s like the Canadian Open because I think they have a cap for prizes if you don’t have a stable USCF rating. To enter the Canadian Open, when you include food and transportation it comes up to around $400. That’s not very attractive, considering there’s hardly any class prizes here! And I agree that not that many people are happy to pay $175 mostly for the GM's but I guess I’ll just wait and see to see how successful this tournament is.
Obviously class players can’t expect to make a living here! At best the tournaments can be a “bonus”. Nobody can rely on class prizes here, not even GM’s. At most in Toronto tournaments a GM can scoop up around $10,000 throughout a year. And they’d pretty much have to win first in each tournament. They’d be better off getting a minimum wage job, like Alex said.
And by splitting the class prize from 1000-500 to 500-400-300-200-100, I think that would attract even less players. Basically that means that even the first place prize will pretty much have to settle for just barely covering the tournament expenses – that’s all a class player can hope to get. (although they will be entertained). Basically, winning $1000 isn't really that lucky. Lottery winners are way luckier than them
And I don’t really like supporting foreign GM’s, taking the prize money away. Sure, they put effort into the game but let’s say they’re paired up with a 1300. They can pretty much beat a 1300 anyway they want to. Let’s say they are losing and the 1300 offers a draw. Will they take it? If it’s not a clear win, then no. Is this what class players should do? Support them when the GM most likely won’t give them any respect? I just don’t believe that GM’s are of “higher authority” than regular people. I do not aim for open prizes. I try to make my hopes realistic. I think I do play better than my rating but I doubt I’m ready to win against the GM’s.
Last edited by Jim Zhao; Thursday, 25th March, 2010, 09:03 PM.
It does seem to exist, but you may be partially right in that it's rare. I have never played HORSE, nor Omaha, and a search does reveal that No Limit doesn't seem to work "well" with these games. In NL HORSE, it's probably only the Hold Em that's played NL, the rest would be Limit I guess.
I"m pretty sure NL Omaha was offered regularly when I was playing weekly at the many Microsoft events. I just never bothered with anything but Hold Em.
2. Suggesting that no limit is a dumbed down version of Limit doesn't make any sense to me for pretty obvious reasons. You have at most 3 options at any point in limit, the fact you can bet-size in NL giving you more options makes it much more complicated.
I would definitely say this is a minority opinion, but not necessarily a bad one. NL is generally full of people who will gamble with you when you're protecting your cards, and all it takes is for one of them to hit their draw and you're busted (bad beat). This is what I meant about "dumbed down version of Limit". I love both games, so no offense was meant towards the NL crowd.
Tom might have meant something else altogether. Perhaps the fact that TV shows the few exciting hands and not the many more mundane hands?
Anyway, I like this very concise but accurate comparison of Limit HE versus NLHE:
"Limit games are often a fight over the cards. Whomever knows the math behind the cards better can slowly rise to the top. In no limit, playing the player is a fundamental skill. If you have an insight into the player, when the time presents itself, you can separate that opponent from his chipstack."
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
No wonder you wanted Chess960 so much that you correlated it like Poker.
You wanted to start a game with different cards (like in poker) and in different initial positions (like in chess960). You claimed to be good a chess organizer! why don't you promote chess960 and become an ambassador to it?
Chess is already a very complex game to master, why do we have to make it even more complicated with another variant. For a change maybe or another way to beat the unbeatable? At the end, you will be playing it in the standard way.
Oh well, the moderator(s) should be wise enough to filter and delete responses to thread not directly related to the topic being discussed but instead start a new topic.
Chesstalk is about discussions and forums dedicated to the promotion of chess.
No Poker promotions pls........ discuss it in other related and appropriate websites!
Rob,
I never claimed to be any kind of chess organizer AT ALL. But yes, probably at some future time I will work to promote chess960.
You don't have to do anything with another variant. You can ignore all variants if you so desire. Some people like variants, they find standard chess too limiting. Are you going to limit what other people can be interested in?
My post related the cost / reward of chess events to those of poker, and this thread is going in the direction of the cost / reward of the Canadian Open. One person seemed to think that just about everyone wants to pay $175 just for the chess experience of the Canadian Open, and I thought he might be interested to know his view might actually be a minority one, and that high entry fees can actually work, using the specific example of poker, as long as the entrants feel they have a decent chance of winning something. If you feel I was off topic, it is your privilige to feel that and to express it. Others may disagree, I certainly do.
ChessTalk is about all kinds of stuff, even climate change. If the moderators want to change that, that is their perogative.
Wasn't promoting poker. If by comparing aspects of poker to those of chess, it looks like I'm promoting poker, it's hard to avoid that, i'm just describing the realities because it's relevant, as I described above.
Again, if the moderators want to filter that, they may do so whenever they wish. Petition them if you like, that is your privilege. Unlike one particular chess IM who thinks he knows everything and mere mortals should not debate his thoughts, I will not try telling you what you may or may not comment on.
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
Tom might have meant something else altogether. Perhaps the fact that TV shows the few exciting hands and not the many more mundane hands?
I am referring to tournament poker, and more specifically those TV tournaments with small chip stacks relative to the blinds. Those show a dumbed down version of poker where some guy shoves all-in preflop with TT and another guy calls him with AQo while the TV announcers drone on about what is basically coin flipping.
Does anyone think that WSOP Main Event winners Jerry Yang, Chris Moneymaker or Peter Eastgate are the best or even say amongst the top 100 players in the world?
For the most part it seems to me that the tournament players get hacked up pretty bad in the cash games (e.g. on High Stakes Poker) while the cash players would do well in tournaments but probably find them too random and the payoffs just don't make it worth their while, unless someone else pays their expenses.
I rather doubt that if the only type of poker played were tournament poker that there would be many, or maybe even any, professional players.
I would be curious to read David Ottosen's opinion on the above.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
you are in the minority in being willing to spend well over a hundred dollars just to experience a chess tournament with GMs and IMs.
All you need do is look at poker to see what happens when you charge very high entry fees BUT give everyone a decent chance to win. Not an equal chance, because there is skill in poker, but a DECENT chance. When people get a wiff of a decent chance to win BIG money, they will pay high entry fees IN THE THOUSANDS! That is, they'll pay THOUSANDS of dollars in entry fees and they'll do it by the THOUSANDS. Result: poker mania and TV coverage.
Chess is poker's poor cousin, and will remain that way. Remember poker.... THOUSANDS. Chess.... dozens.
Actually, it would be fairly simple to organize a chess tournament with high entry fees and a decent chance to win for everyone, including complete beginners. And you don't even have to alter game rules or to introduce chess 960 or any other variant. All you have to do is to introduce random pairings. Which means ratings would never be considered for pairings. For the first round pairings and colors would be determined by drawing lots: Player A plays White against Player B on board 1; Player C plays White against Player D on board 2; and so on. For the remaining rounds all players with the same score would play together, as in regular swisses, but otherwise pairings and colors would continue to be random.
Everybody as a decent chance to win in such a tournament, because with hundreds or even thousands players several beginners might get lucky pairings and never meet any strong players, while experts and masters might get unlucky pairings in the first rounds, take valuable points from each other, and never get the chance to be paired with the leaders.
Now, to make sure everybody understands what I mean, I never said that organizing such a tournament would be good for chess; all I said is that organizing such a chess tournament would be easy enough to do while attracting lots of players, convincing them to pay high entry fees, and giving them a decent chance to win large amounts.
Last edited by Louis Morin; Friday, 26th March, 2010, 12:19 AM.
Watching NLHE tournament poker on TV isn't all that interesting because its almost always watching short stacked play... some guy raises preflop, somebody else goes all in and he gets called and we watch a race. Its pretty rare to see any postflop spots that are interesting, that you do see early in tournaments or in a cash game.
In regards to at least the first NL Horse tournament you posted, the 50k WSOP horse event is most certainly limit Im not sure why it says NL. Still surprised at the others you posted though... maybe it only refers to the hold'em limits? Playing no limit stud or no limit razz just seems insane to me. =]
Of course it’s a dream that a World Open like tournament is held in Canada. That would be quite a lot of fun aiming for $10,000 and with only $400 for an entry fee, much more goes back to the class prizes thus making the world open a great tournament. Actually $1000 wouldn’t be so bad for that. But there’s other problems as for Canadians it’s like the Canadian Open because I think they have a cap for prizes if you don’t have a stable USCF rating. To enter the Canadian Open, when you include food and transportation it comes up to around $400. That’s not very attractive, considering there’s hardly any class prizes here! And I agree that not that many people are happy to pay $175 mostly for the GM's but I guess I’ll just wait and see to see how successful this tournament is.
Obviously class players can’t expect to make a living here! At best the tournaments can be a “bonus”. Nobody can rely on class prizes here, not even GM’s. At most in Toronto tournaments a GM can scoop up around $10,000 throughout a year. And they’d pretty much have to win first in each tournament. They’d be better off getting a minimum wage job, like Alex said.
And by splitting the class prize from 1000-500 to 500-400-300-200-100, I think that would attract even less players. Basically that means that even the first place prize will pretty much have to settle for just barely covering the tournament expenses – that’s all a class player can hope to get. (although they will be entertained). Basically, winning $1000 isn't really that lucky. Lottery winners are way luckier than them
And I don’t really like supporting foreign GM’s, taking the prize money away. Sure, they put effort into the game but let’s say they’re paired up with a 1300. They can pretty much beat a 1300 anyway they want to. Let’s say they are losing and the 1300 offers a draw. Will they take it? If it’s not a clear win, then no. Is this what class players should do? Support them when the GM most likely won’t give them any respect? I just don’t believe that GM’s are of “higher authority” than regular people. I do not aim for open prizes. I try to make my hopes realistic. I think I do play better than my rating but I doubt I’m ready to win against the GM’s.
Jim,
So, are very much in favor with the World Open's Class Section Prize distributions!
If someday, an organizer(s) will put up a tournament similar to the World Open's in Toronto, will you be the first one to pre-register even with high entry fee?
Will you join in any tournaments if the Class Section Prize Distributions is similar to the recently concluded Maurice Open in Quebec City? Similar prize distributions to all the sections including the Open. They attracted over 200 participants annually.
The Hart House Toronto Open is going to be held next week and you participated and won in the last tournament of your section, with your criteria of ratio and proportion on the entry fee and prize distribution in the Class Sections, you don't seem to participate this time! What made you join the last tournament with pretty similar prize distributions as the incoming Canadian Open 2010?
Your previous answers/feedbacks were very practical, perhaps may be taken by new chess organizer(s) into account for consideration in future tournaments. Wait and see, your dreams might become a reality!
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