The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification‏

[Igor Zugic]

Recently I have been made aware of the discussion on Chesstalk regarding the Olympic Team Selection. I feel obligated to respond since I feel that my integrity has been questioned because I was on the Committee.
At the end of March, Hal asked me if I would be willing to be on the selection committee. It’s always an honour to be involved in the Olympiad, so I accepted without hesitation.
Ron Livshits and I were presented with a task of selecting 3 prospective players for both Men’s and Women’s teams. As far as I know we had the same authority.

On the Men’s team Hebert, Spraggett, Bluvshtein and Gerzhoy qualified automatically. The most serious contenders for our selection were (average rating in brackets):
Charbonneau Pascal (2517)
Samsonkin Artem (2515)
Porper Edward (2502)
Roussel-Roozmon Thomas (2497)
Krnan Tomas (2487)
Noritsyn Nikolay (2484)
Hansen Eric (2471)

Ron proposed Pascal, Thomas RR, Samsonkin, noting that before he made his choice, he had some consideration for Noritsyn.
Here is an excerpt from my e-mail response to Ron (April 2, 2010):
“I agree with your list 1-3 (Pascal, Thomas RR, Samsonkin). The first two are clear, but I spent some time thinking about 3. I reached a conclusion that Samsonkin deserves the chance the most. It is difficult to pick Noritsyn ahead of all the other candidates that have higher average: Porper, Krnan and Samsonkin. Samsonkin has not had the opportunity to play in the Olympiad before, so it might be most beneficial experience for him as well.“

The next day Ron sent an e-mail to Ilia Bluvshtein, Hal Bond and myself with our official picks:
“Thanks Igor. So seems we are in agreement on the following selections:
1. Pascal
2. Thomas RR
3. Samsonkin”

Ilia acknowledged that he received our decision with a thank you message on April 5th. That e-mail from Ilia was the last communication I had regarding the Olympic team selections! I have no clue how Noritsyn ended up on the team, since I was not involved in that decision. I have no problem defending my choices of Pascal, Thomas RR and Samsonkin. At the same time I have a problem with being labelled for doing something I did not do.

I took the responsibility of selecting the Olympic team members very seriously. It is ludicrous to insinuate that potential members’ geographical residence, first language, or any other attribute not relevant to chess skills and contributions to the team, would influence my decisions.

I hope that the situation clarifies and I wish our team great success at the Olympiad!

Igor Zugic

[Jean Hébert]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

I have no clue how Noritsyn ended up on the team, since I was not involved in that decision.

It has to be because higher rated players (Samsonkin and Porper) have turned down their invitations. However we already know that Porper got no invitation and that Samsonkin was not only higher rated but also higher on the committee's list. What about him, was he invited or bypassed just like Porper ? The intrigue thickens...

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

It looks like Igor and Ron did their job. Did anybody suggest otherwise? However, in light of the 1994 precedent, why were they asked to pick more than one player? Then later, why was more than one selection committee pick chosen (even extending the list that they submitted to four names from three) rather than reverting to the rating list? Even if you overthrow the 1994 precedent, that leaves only one selected player and the rest by rating. With the 1994 precedent, all five would be by rating once Pascal (and Jean) had declined.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

The 1994 precedent isn't real because in 2004 I know Hazel Smith was selected to play and when she declined Valentina Goutor was selected.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

The 1994 precedent isn't real because in 2004 I know Hazel Smith was selected to play and when she declined Valentina Goutor was selected.

That would be this team?

Team

[Howard Streit]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

I like the idea of selecting young players for inclusion on the team so they may gain experience as in the Samsonkin argument. I remember that tact was used decades ago to include a youngster with little international experience but a great deal of potential. At the time there was a great deal of protest from supporters of more highly rated, experienced candidates. This was largely ignored and the team traveled overseas with a young player named Kevin Spraggett, he seemed to benefit greatly from the experience and was not out of place.

After all, why not allow young players the opportunity to represent us, it is not like we will fall short of finishing in first place by a half point or anything like that.

[Denis Allan]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

I like the idea of including young players for inclusion on the team so they may gain experience as in the Samsonkin argument. I remember that tact was used decades ago to include a youngster with little international experience but a great deal of potential. At the time there was a great deal of protest from supporters of more highly rated, experienced candidates. This was largely ignored and the team traveled overseas with a young player named Kevin Spraggett, he seemed to benefit greatly from the experience and was not out of place.

After all, why not allow young players the opportunity to represent us, it is not like we will fall short of finishing in first place by a half point or anything like that.

Interesting but only partly accurate. Up to Nice 1974 John Prentice was captain, picked the team and largely funded the team. Then he decided to give up the captaincy to Zvonko Vranesic who picked the team for 1976, including Kevin Spraggett and leaving off Yanofsky. I was surprised that the focus of protest was entirely on Kevin, as Lawrence Day had played both in Lugano 1968 and Nice, in both cases on lower boards and having lower scores than Yanofsky. Kevin resolved the issue by withdrawing from the team and did not play in the Olympics till 1986. Of course Zvonko was right. Both Kevin and Lawrence had surpassed Abe, but few of the governors were capable of appreciating that. Zvonko did not pick Kevin for his potential - he picked him for his strength at the time. Picking young players for potential has been debated many times - at one time there was a rule that one player had to be a certain age or less - maybe 21? Dean Hergott was that player in 1984, but he was sick early and when he recovered, Pelts was cruising with White, Hartman with Black, and Dean got very few games and was disenchanted with the process.

[Jean Sasseville]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

Interesting but only partly accurate. Up to Nice 1974 John Prentice was captain, picked the team and largely funded the team. Then he decided to give up the captaincy to Zvonko Vranesic who picked the team for 1976, including Kevin Spraggett and leaving off Yanofsky. I was surprised that the focus of protest was entirely on Kevin, as Lawrence Day had played both in Lugano 1968 and Nice, in both cases on lower boards and having lower scores than Yanofsky. Kevin resolved the issue by withdrawing from the team and did not play in the Olympics till 1986. Of course Zvonko was right. Both Kevin and Lawrence had surpassed Abe, but few of the governors were capable of appreciating that. Zvonko did not pick Kevin for his potential - he picked him for his strength at the time. Picking young players for potential has been debated many times - at one time there was a rule that one player had to be a certain age or less - maybe 21? Dean Hergott was that player in 1984, but he was sick early and when he recovered, Pelts was cruising with White, Hartman with Black, and Dean got very few games and was disenchanted with the process.

Great historical background. I did not know that criticisms toward Kevin started so soon in his career. What a shame.

In January 2010, Avetik Grigoryan (FIDE=2576) won convincingly the Armenian championship. So their selection committee decided to add him and to include him in the team. The committee was not forced to take him and he is replacing a higher rated player, Tigran L. Petrosian (FIDE=2612). They must have concluded that this dude is strong and that it was the best thing to include him.

http://www.chessdom.com/news-2010/ar...olympiad-teams

[Lawrence Day]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

It seems now that the reasoning was fairly elementary. Choosing between Noritsyn and Porper, obviously both fine players, the CFC considered that Ron had already thought it through, considered both the youth aspect and the experience aspect as otherwise the team has an imbalanced 3/5 rookies.

The 'take one junior' philosophy began for Tel Aviv 1964 with the choice between Suttles and Lipnowski who had finished ahead of him in the 1963 Winnpeg Closed. In the patronage era Prentice ran everything from Vancouver so maybe local players had a bit of an edge. Times were feudal.

Being young, I benefitted for Lugano 1968 but taking time off school was far from ideal and getting clobberred by a half-dozen GMs proved a gruelling initiation. At Siegen 1970 rookie Bruce Amos shone. I wasn't invited. Skopje 1972 I was sicko on board 6 (2287). Rookie Biyiasas shone. Yanofsky made +4-5=4 on 2nd (2293). To qualify I had to play a 4-game match with Kuprejanov as we shared 2nd in the 1972 Zonal behind Biyiasas. Yanofsky had an immense but ancient rating and didn't play the 1969 or 1972 Zonals so his strength was a mystery.

Then came the Fischer boom, massive new players and a business-minded cfc based in Ottawa and at odds with the Vancouver influence. In 1974 Vranesic was one-man selection committee and Captain, free reign. He choose Spraggett over Yanofsky and Kevin was invited. Then came cfc politics and changing horses midstream chaosification and Kevin was uninvited; they changed the rules on him.

As it went team spirit was poor. I scored +5=5-1 for 2420 on 5th and Yanofsky +3-3+3 on 3rd (2367).

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

There's a lot of juicy tangents--but from reading a lot of the comments in this thread, you'd think that there were no rules for selection of the 2010 Olympic team. Rules which have been circulated on this board seem to indicate that at least four of five were to be named on merit (i.e., rating) and at most one by other methods (selection committee). That's not what happened.

In the original thread, Eric Hansen wrote this:

Re: Olympic Team
I thought I didn't qualify based on rating. But now knowing what their methods are, I think I'm going to need to be at least a GM from Alberta to have a chance to be selected over average IM's from Toronto :-)

A pithy comment.

[Steve Douglas]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

There's a lot of juicy tangents--but from reading a lot of the comments in this thread, you'd think that there were no rules for selection of the 2010 Olympic team. Rules which have been circulated on this board seem to indicate that at least four of five were to be named on merit (i.e., rating) and at most one by other methods (selection committee). That's not what happened.

In the original thread, Eric Hansen wrote this:

A pithy comment.

Hi Jonathan:

The rules and comments that I've seen would say that at the moment 2 were properly selected by rating and 3 by selection committee.

Given that the current format is *supposed* to be 1+3+1, exactly what happens if the current Canadian Champion (Jean Hebert in this case) declines? Does that spot go to the rating list or to the selection committee. My own view is that it should go to the selection committee.

Again, this isn't supposed to be rocket science, so why is it apparently so hard for the CFC to set clear criteria (and process) and then actually *adhere* to them??

Steve

P.S. I can only imagine the pig's breakfast this is going to become once we get into squabbles about board order.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: Policy on Those Declining

Hi Jonathan:

I think you are right about who the replacements should have been. Here is my May 27 post on a different thread in this same vein ( I also sent my post to Hal Bond for discussion with Ilia ):

" May 27, 2010, 04:07 PM
Bob Armstrong

Re: Olympic Team - Selection " Interpretation " of the Handbook

I think that IF there is no specific Handbook section dealing with this issue of " declines " ( as opposed to withdrawals ), the spirit of the initial selection process should be honoured - the bulk by rating.

So if as here, the Canadian Champion declines, the committee should go to the next highest player eligible. If those by rating decline, then the committee should go to the next highest player eligible. If the wildcard discretionary selection of the Selection Committee declines, then the Committee gets another substitute wildcard choice ( this almost reads as if it could be made a Handbook Section ! ).

Please indicate if you agree with me , or not, and why. "

Does this seem like a clear, simple, fair and reasonable formula that could be included in the Handbook?

Bob

[Laurentiu Grigorescu]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

When looking at the list of candidates above, one may notice that between Pascal's rating and Eric's rating are less than 50 points difference. How significant is this?
It appears to me that selecting on rating alone is not sufficient after one point and other criteria needs to be used.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: Policy on Those Declining

Susan Polgar's Blog ( which may come from Chessdom ) has the Can. National Olympiad team as :

Canada - IM Nikolay Noritsyn, GM Mark Bluvshtein, GM Pascal Charbonneau, IM Igor Zugic and IM Thomas Roussel-Roozmon

How did this happen? Can you change team members after a team list is submitted to FIDE ( if that is what happened ), and if so, to what date?

Bob

[Ken Craft]

Re: The Olympic Team Selection: (Some) Clarification

I believe that is what is listed on the CFC website from a previous olympiad.