Olympiad Selection Process

**Ken Craft** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 01:18 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

I don't think anyone is criticizing you, Ron. I'm certainly not. The point of discussion is how should players who declined their invitations be replaced. I think it is pretty clear that the intent of the regulations was for them to be replaced by going down the rating selection list not through choices made by the Selection Committee. What is still unclear to me is who made the decision for the Federation to follow the method of populating the teams that was used this year?

**Kerry Liles** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 01:25 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Originally posted by Ron Livshits View Post

Hi,

Let me try to explain events as happened.

1. Igor and Ron asked to select 3 candidates from the following table (Kevin, Mark, Leond, & Jean having been invited already)

...table snipped

2. Igor & Ron easily agree that the first two should be Pascal & Thomas RR

3. I was slightly hestitating between Artem & Nikolay (why Nikolay is explained in 4C below). Artem appears to be stronger but Nikolay is a better team player and this counts signfincantly in a team event like an olympiad. Nevertheless me and Igor agreed that Artem would be the 3rd pick.

4. I was contacted by Ilia with the following news

a) Kevin, Jean, Pascal declined

b) The remaining players choose me as the Captain

c) Who do I think should take the fifth spot - I opted for Nikolay and here is my reasoning: Thomas Kranan is a very strong player and a good team player but he has not played much at a high level recently. Next both Nikolay and Eduard were strong players with very good recent achivments. Nikolay won the closed and Eduard the Open. Eric is still a young promising player who needs to establish himself. Zhe not quite as strong as the others. So the decision was between Nikolay & Eduard. I choose Nikolay because I believe he fits the team much better. You cannot under-estimate how important team spirit is in the olympiad, I've played in 3 and coached the last one and I can tell you team spirit can compenstae greatly for being an under-dog.

d) I regretfully choose to decline being the Captain due to personal reasons. I do think that Yuri will make an excellent captain!

Please feel free to blame me although I beleive I acted in the best intrests of the sucsses of our team.

Thanks for posting this information. Facts are always more useful than speculation!

**Bob Armstrong** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 01:33 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process - The Proper Steps

Hi Ron:

As far as I can tell, there is not really any valid criticism of the Selection Committee. It seems to have followed Ilia's instructions as Olympiad Coordinator. Others may disagree with the selections you both made, but you seem to have competently exercised your discretion, and you had the task of doing it.

The issue is the instructions you were given, which has nothing to do with you and Igor.

I don't understand your first instruction. I thought that the initial team was to be invited via:

1. Canadian Champion -Jean
2. 3 by rating - Kevin, Mark and Leonid
3. 1 by your Selection Committee - but this was not what you were asked to do ! I think the instruction to you is not according to the CFC Handbook.

I think you should have chosen 1 player - it seems your first choice was Pascal.

The next things that should have happened I think are:

1. Kevin, Jean and Pacal decline;
2. So the Olympiad Coordinator/Selection Committee, take the next 2 by rating to replace Kevin and Jean - that would have been Artiom and Eduard ( this is my interpretation of how the exisiting Handbook section should be used ).
3. The Selection Committee gets to replace the declining wildcard selection, and determines a wildcard replacement - you seem to have Thomas as your second on the wildcard list ( this is my interpretation of how the exisiting Handbook section should be used ).
4. The 3 replacements are invited, and CFC waits to see who accepts. ( Artiom and Thomas accepted; the problem arises that Eduard has never been contacted ! )

I think now, that Nikolay needs to be told that his position on the team is tentative, because of the error of the CFC in not following the Handbook/proper interpretation of the Handbook, and that his participation hinges on what Eduard will do when invited. Then Eduard should be invited, and CFC await his reply.

If Eduard declines however, we will then be replacing a player " chosen by rating ". My interpretation is that CFC then has to go and invite the next highest player by rating, which would be Thomas Krnan ( Nikolay is lower rated ).

It Thomas accepts, then Nikolay is not on the team. If Thomas declines, then Nikolay, as the next highest rated, gets the replacement by rating invite.

The above is my best shot at what I think should be happening. I admit I have no direct experience in the Olympiad area - I am just going on what I think the Handbook says and how it should be interpreted. Maybe I am wrong?

What are the views on my concept of how the process ought to have gone?

Bob

**Kerry Liles** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 02:02 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process - The Proper Steps

Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post

Hi Ron:

As far as I can tell, there is not really any valid criticism of the Selection Committee. It seems to have followed Ilia's instructions as Olympiad Coordinator. Others may disagree with the selections you both made, but you seem to have competently exercised your discretion, and you had the task of doing it.

The issue is the instructions you were given, which has nothing to do with you and Igor.

I don't understand your first instruction. I thought that the initial team was to be invited via:

1. Canadian Champion -Jean
2. 3 by rating - Kevin, Mark and Leonid
3. 1 by your Selection Committee - but this was not what you were asked to do ! I think the instruction to you is not according to the CFC Handbook.

I think you should have chosen 1 player - it seems your first choice was Pascal.

The next things that should have happened I think are:

1. Kevin, Jean and Pacal decline;
2. So the Olympiad Coordinator/Selection Committee, take the next 2 by rating to replace Kevin and Jean - that would have been Artiom and Eduard ( this is my interpretation of how the exisiting Handbook section should be used ).
3. The Selection Committee gets to replace the declining wildcard selection, and determines a wildcard replacement - you seem to have Thomas as your second on the wildcard list ( this is my interpretation of how the exisiting Handbook section should be used ).
4. The 3 replacements are invited, and CFC waits to see who accepts. ( Artiom and Thomas accepted; the problem arises that Eduard has never been contacted ! )

I think now, that Nikolay needs to be told that his position on the team is tentative, because of the error of the CFC in not following the Handbook/proper interpretation of the Handbook, and that his participation hinges on what Eduard will do when invited. Then Eduard should be invited, and CFC await his reply.

If Eduard declines however, we will then be replacing a player " chosen by rating ". My interpretation is that CFC then has to go and invite the next highest player by rating, which would be Thomas Krnan ( Nikolay is lower rated ).

It Thomas accepts, then Nikolay is not on the team. If Thomas declines, then Nikolay, as the next highest rated, gets the replacement by rating invite.

The above is my best shot at what I think should be happening. I admit I have no direct experience in the Olympiad area - I am just going on what I think the Handbook says and how it should be interpreted. Maybe I am wrong?

What are the views on my concept of how the process ought to have gone?

Bob

Is all of this moot now (other than the worthwhile goal of absolutely locking down the selection process for future selections)? I may be mistaken, but I thought the team had to be submitted (to FIDE) by now... in any case, how can it be reasonable to tell several people that they may or may not be on the team at this late date!!!??? There was a post from Larry (and I see the same on Susan Polgar's website) that the national federations have only until July 1 to actually cough up the money! I presume the NAMES have to be decided long before then!?

eg: All federations must pay the invoices to the FIDE ACCOUNT, as specified in the invoice, before JULY 1st 2010, if they wish to secure their seats in the Charters and their accommodation in Khanty-Mansiysk during the Olympiad.

**Egidijus Zeromskis** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 05:03 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process - The Proper Steps

Originally posted by Kerry Liles View Post

moot now

It might more helpful for both sides (SC and players), that players who are not even thinking to play would decline in advance, while those who are willing provides their contact info.

Bob, there is a flaw in your possible solution (imho).

"If Eduard declines however, we will then be replacing a player " chosen by rating "."

If you read once more a procedure, you would find the magic number 10. ("a list of the top 10 Selection Ratings") Thomas and Nikolay are 11, 12 on the list. Thus, their candidacy should not be based on "(a) If a player withdraws, he or she shall be replaced by the next player on the Selection Rating List."

**Kerry Liles** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 05:16 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process - The Proper Steps

Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post

It might more helpful for both sides (SC and players), that players who are not even thinking to play would decline in advance, while those who are willing provides their contact info.

Bob, there is a flaw in your possible solution (imho).

If you read once more a procedure, you would find the magic number 10. ("a list of the top 10 Selection Ratings") Thomas and Nikolay are 11, 12 on the list. Thus, their candidacy should not be based on "(a) If a player withdraws, he or she shall be replaced by the next player on the Selection Rating List."

I think that the procedure was created by people who assumed that it would be rare for people to decline (an optimistic view) - that is the only reason I can think of for the use of a value like "10" at all.

**Ilia Bluvshtein** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 08:41 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

I have to clarify several issues.

1. The issue of Selection Ratings vs Selection Committee for declined invitations.

The CFC Handbook does not specify whether the Selection Rating list shall be used or the Selection Committee chooses a replacement if a player declines the invitation. Section 1211 of the CFC Handbook states:
“Once all members of the Canadian Delegation to the Olympiad have been determined:
(a) If a player withdraws, he or she shall be replaced by the next player on the Selection Rating List.”

The above Section applies to the case when all players accept their invitations and the Delegation is determined; then a player withdraws. In this Olympiad cycle, there were no withdrawals. Replacements were needed because several players declined invitations. Therefore Section 1211 is not applied.

In the absence of clear direction in the CFC Handbook, I’ve decided that the Selection Committee shall choose a replacement. As Olympiad coordinator, I have discretion to make such a decision.

2. Initial selection of Pascal, Thomas, and Artem by the Selection Committee.

I asked Ron and Igor to select 3 candidates and prioritize them in case the invited players decline. Pascal was the #1 pick. Therefore initial invitations were sent to Jean, Kevin, Mark, Leonid, and Pascal. After Kevin and Pascal declined, invitations were sent to Thomas and Artem.

3. Selection of Nikolay.

The deadline to accept invitations was April 30th. Long before the deadline Mark, Leonid, Thomas, and Artem accepted. We have heard nothing from Jean. I was very concerned that Jean did not get his invitation. (Invitations were sent by e-mail and we know that e-mails can be lost.) Therefore I used every possible resource to contact Jean. Eventually on May 2nd or 3rd Jean e-mailed me that he did not answer the CFC invitation because he was not interested to play in this Olympiad. In this critical situation (critical because…to make a long story short, several time consuming steps had to be completed by May 20 – deadline for teams registration – such as selection of Captains, booking tickets to Europe, booking charter flights from one of 4 airports in Europe (Moscow, Milan, Munich or Prague) to Khanty-Mansiysk, collecting required info from all team members, and, finally, team registration), we had to find an immediate replacement. I went to the Selection Committee (see comment #1 above). It appeared that Igor was out of Canada. So I asked Ron to select a replacement ASAP. Ron selected Nikolay, see his detailed post in this thread.

Taking this opportunity, I would kindly ask all postees to be positive, constructive, and have some faith in the people responsible and the decisions made. There was never any bad intent and/or hidden agenda in the selection of the Olympic teams and, as far as I know, in other issues managed by the CFC Executive and its committees.

I would also encourage people to make positive contribution to the chess community and volunteer to the many positions on the CFC Executive and its committees. The CFC AGM is coming next month and everybody has plenty of opportunities to contribute by doing.

Ilia Bluvshtein

**David Ottosen** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 08:55 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Originally posted by Ilia Bluvshtein View Post

Eventually on May 2nd or 3rd Jean e-mailed me that he did not answer the CFC invitation because he was not interested to play in this Olympiad. In this critical situation (critical because…to make a long story short, several time consuming steps had to be completed by May 20

Let's stop right here. You have 17 days to try to contact people at this point. It does not have to be a decision made by end of business on the 4th. I don't see exactly how booking some plane tickets represents a "time consuming step".

Did you consult with anyone before taking this decision, or review the CFC handbook and decide that despite the relatively obvious intent of the rules, you were going to do it differently simply because it was not to the letter spelled out?

Taking this opportunity, I would kindly ask all postees to be positive, constructive, and have some faith in the people responsible and the decisions made.

I think the vast majority of posts on this subject have been exactly that. There have simply been repeated questions as to what selection process was used, and why a seemingly deserving player was not selected. Please drop the holier than thou condescending comments like this. The CFC, in my mind, has not earned "faith" of the sort you describe with many years of questionable decisions.

One additional question for Ron which is purely for my own curiosity, regarding this:

So the decision was between Nikolay & Eduard. I choose Nikolay because I believe he fits the team much better

Have you ever personally met Eduard?

**Ron Livshits** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 09:19 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Yes I have met Eduard. I stand by my choice of Nikolay.

**Jean Hébert** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 09:33 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Originally posted by David Ottosen View Post

Let's stop right here. You have 17 days to try to contact people at this point. It does not have to be a decision made by end of business on the 4th. I don't see exactly how booking some plane tickets represents a "time consuming step".

Did you consult with anyone before taking this decision, or review the CFC handbook and decide that despite the relatively obvious intent of the rules, you were going to do it differently simply because it was not to the letter spelled out?

I think the vast majority of posts on this subject have been exactly that. There have simply been repeated questions as to what selection process was used, and why a seemingly deserving player was not selected. Please drop the holier than thou condescending comments like this. The CFC, in my mind, has not earned "faith" of the sort you describe with many years of questionable decisions.

One additional question for Ron which is purely for my own curiosity, regarding this:

Have you ever personally met Eduard?

I could not have said it better David! I am proud of you.
But aren't you worried that your sharp criticism may scare volunteers and valuable organizers away ? ;)

**Jean Hébert** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 09:44 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Originally posted by Ron Livshits View Post

Yes I have met Eduard. I stand by my choice of Nikolay.

When I see people willing to play God in deciding who fits in and who doesn't it worries me. Is it color skin, age, religion, eating habits, first language, general behaviour ? And all that for chess, that is primarily an individual sport, not a team sport! This somehow makes me increasingly opposed to selection committees, or possibly it's just Ron, I don't know. Let's go only by ratings then, it is complicated enough.

**Ron Livshits** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 10:04 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

I understand some people may disagree with my choice and some may be offended. I was asked to serve on a committee, I was asked to provide my input and I did. I have no personal bias against anyone, I do however think that the Olympiad is a team event and the choice of players should be dictated by team factors as well as by chess strength. Nikolay is not only an outstanding player and former Canadian Champion he is also a great team player, something I observed first hand in the last Olympiad. In the past we have had good successes when the team gelled well.

**Bob Armstrong** · Wednesday, 2nd June, 2010, 10:17 PM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process - Invitees Declining - Handbook Amendments

Originally posted by Ilia Bluvshtein View Post

I have to clarify several issues.

1. The issue of Selection Ratings vs Selection Committee for declined invitations.

The CFC Handbook does not specify whether the Selection Rating list shall be used or the Selection Committee chooses a replacement if a player declines the invitation. .... Replacements were needed because several players declined invitations.

In the absence of clear direction in the CFC Handbook, I’ve decided that the Selection Committee shall choose a replacement. As Olympiad coordinator, I have discretion to make such a decision.

Ilia Bluvshtein

Hi Ilia:

I believe it is up to the executive to object, if they do not accept your statement, as they appointed you as Olympiad Coordinator:

" As Olympiad coordinator, I have discretion to make such a decision. "

And part of their decision rests on whether they agree that your discretionary decision is in the spirit of the existing sections of the Handbook that deal with Olympiad Teams selection.

I feel that this should not be an area of Olympiad Coordinator discretion in future. The selection process, to have integrity, should be clearly set out in the Handbook.

So I have already drafted a motion, which I will be bringing, after due consultation and public input, to clarify the rules on " Invitees Declining ".

But it would seem to me that it is not beneficial to bring forward such a motion at this time. It may generate confusion as to the current situation, and may have a negative effect on the Olympiad teams, and on the fund-raising drive to send them. So I will wait 'til after the Olympiad is over to go public with my motion. I will send it to you first, for your comments, before I do anything with it.

Bob

**Gary Ruben** · Thursday, 3rd June, 2010, 01:56 AM

Re: Olympiad Selection Process

Originally posted by Ron Livshits View Post

In the past we have had good successes when the team gelled well.

What happened here? A failure to gel?

Click Here...

Olympiad Selection Process

Olympiad Selection Process

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment