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Here many people have lost sight of why games must be recorded and scoresheets collected... (regardless of the recent phenomena of databases).
Thanks, that is an issue, but I would have thought the arbiter could go and get a copy while the point was being made.
Far better players have looked at the position now (finally!), and found the final position to be a draw. Plus I was partly wrong in reading the clock,
and the relative shortage of time explains how the Q allowed a fortress, sometime after I watched the game.
Still, the arbiter should have said something like "I'll have a look at the game",
rather than display little interest. He should satisfy less skilled players that the games are on the level.
The notion that the 50-move rule would kick in before a win takes place assumes that the pawn doesn't move and/or is not captured along the way.
White had amply shown that he was above such a mistake.
Nonetheless, after White's 58th move, the tablebase shows Black has a win in 53. After White's 70th move (let's assume Black fumbled around for a bit trying to grasp the initial thread of how to force a win), the tablebase shows the win is still 48 moves away.
Steve
I'm not surprised. The complaint specified the final position.
One could go away for a while and find the exact point where Black strayed crucially from the tablebase victory. But that does not address the pressing human question; it needed to be answered, and it was.
Now we find out that the complainant (s) had the clock times wrong.
There's one thing missing in this thread,
and it needs to come from EZ.
First off, I would like to say that my opponent did not have 3 minutes left. In the final position, he had one and a half hours to my fifteen or so minutes. I tried hard to win but believed that he had set up a fortress. He seemed to know the technique to draw and did not make a mistake during my attempts to win the game once we had reached the Q vs. R+P ending.
Secondly, are you inferring that I deliberately failed to convert this ending? I would have won $260 more had I done so... Where's the logic in that?
Seems to me as though you're just a sore loser. Based on what I've seen in this thread, it was clearly a draw. Incidentally, what exactly are you expecting them to investigate? Like, is a TD going to go "YOU DID NOT PLAY WELL ENOUGH. THIS GAME NO LONGER COUNTS"? This is a ridiculous complaint.
They were what, 38 moves towards a 50-move draw? The last capture was on move 57. Black tried really hard to win, but White was equal to the task. A grand battle.
Incidentally, this tablebase Knowledge 4IT shows the final position as a win in 29 moves. So the 50-move draw would already have kicked in and a draw is the proper result, grand gestures aside.
FEN: 8/8/2k5/3R4/2P5/1K6/8/1q6 w - - 0 1
EDIT: No no, I misread the tablebase. If White makes the worst move on the board Ka4, it's a win in 29, thus a draw. If he makes the obvious Kc3, it's a win in 53 moves, in other words it is a 50-move draw even without any history.
Hi Jonathan:
The notion that the 50-move rule would kick in before a win takes place assumes that the pawn doesn't move and/or is not captured along the way.
Nonetheless, after White's 58th move, the tablebase shows Black has a win in 53. After White's 70th move (let's assume Black fumbled around for a bit trying to grasp the initial thread of how to force a win), the tablebase shows the win is still 48 moves away.
your complaint that someone managed to draw a R+BP vs Q ending and that this is somehow entirely unfair is entirely unconvincing regardless of the rating and/or time situation of the opponent.
You could of course post a position but really, winning that endgame (I presume you mean with the queen) can be quite difficult and perhaps undoable if you have never studied the technique. Of course, your post is unclear about what happened (draw, win, loss?) and likewise unclear as to what you think should have happened.
The opinion of casual observers about particular positions is completely unreliable.
Arjun managed to setup a fortress. Its a dead draw. Here is one of the position.
According to Nalimov's tablebases, it is winning. But finding it over the board can be hard, especially with all the pressure.
Nalimov tablebases show mate in 53 from the final position but it takes more than 20 moves (25-26) until the pawn is captured or moves.
They already made 38 moves without a capture or a pawn move - so theoretically - the position was drawn when the game ended (move 95).
you are the one making allegations. So, you need to present an apriori plausible case. So far, you have refused to do so. You claim it's suspicious but what you have said so far does not make me believe you.
No foul play here I am afraid. :) Nonetheless it is a good example to support systematic use of carbon copy scoresheets. It is very difficult for the players to claim anything (about other players games) when organizers do not provide carbon copy scoresheets and are thus unable to collect and demand gamescores at the end of EVERY GAME. Again, foul allegations or not, if the organization does not do what is needed to get gamescores, it is very much to blame. Of course, even with gamescores (which apparently seems to be the case here), there is not much to do if the ref simply turns his back.
I remember my very first tournament in Quebec City in 1968. I was 8 years old then and somewhat nervous about one thing in particular: going to the arbiter's table after the game (who happened to be the venerable Dudley M. LeDain) and hand in the carbon copy of my scoresheet. This I have continued to do all of my career (not nervous anymore though), wherever I have played... outside of North America.
Here many people have lost sight of why games must be recorded and scoresheets collected... (regardless of the recent phenomena of databases).
Frankly enough, a player of your caliber would not stand even the smallest chance of winning that position within 15 minutes against the player that managed to hold the draw. I cannot believe that you would so rudely accuse someone of throwing a game like that. I'm not even a master, but maybe you can enlighten me with some of your genius and beat someone (at least master level) in that position (within 15 minutes of course). You are obviously too strong for me, so unfortunately, I would not make decent opposition for you.
I obviously cannot understand your educated train of thought, but I really cannot understand why someone would waste 76 moves throwing a draw when often, "prearranged" draws are played out in 25 moves or less.
If you're really that worried about $100, you shouldn't have taken the week + 2 days off work (and blown another $195) to play in such an expensive tournament. All I'm seeing is a greedy, selfish argument.
Do you offer chess lessons?
I'm disgusted.
Maybe Hal needs to investigate your reason for throwing your round 3 game (which clearly had a prearranged result - nobody of Ed's caliber is capable of losing to a 1510!).
Last edited by Kevin Me; Sunday, 18th July, 2010, 07:53 PM.
They were what, 38 moves towards a 50-move draw? The last capture was on move 57. Black tried really hard to win, but White was equal to the task. A grand battle.
My surmise must have been wrong. That couldn't be the game that was objected to. Nobody would call that game a fix unless they had evidence. :)
No, seriously. That is not a thrown game. If Black has a win (conversion in 12 moves or less) in the final position, he would have played it, if he had seen it. With my opponent having 3 minutes, I probably would have played on hoping for a blunder, but the grand gesture would have been to offer a draw to acknowledge the opponent's wonderful defensive accomplishment. Players have the right to make a grand gesture, especially after a grand battle. No appeals committee need meet, the TD can sum that up in a glance.
Incidentally, this tablebase Knowledge 4IT shows the final position as a win in 29 moves. So the 50-move draw would already have kicked in and a draw is the proper result, grand gestures aside.
FEN: 8/8/2k5/3R4/2P5/1K6/8/1q6 w - - 0 1
EDIT: No no, I misread the tablebase. If White makes the worst move on the board Ka4, it's a win in 29, thus a draw. If he makes the obvious Kc3, it's a win in 53 moves, in other words it is a 50-move draw even without any history.
RE-EDIT: The numbers in Knowledge 4IT seem to be DTM (distance to mate) rather than DTC (distance to conversion), but the fact remains that if White makes the reasonable move, Black can't convert in 12 moves, or even close. If you follow the best play a few moves, at one point Black has a free move and it turns out that the waiting move Ke7-d8 is the efficient move, while Ke7-d7 (centralizing) takes longer to mate. Yeah, right, Black is a master in SD, why should he ever miss a 2800 tablebase move?
Last edited by Jonathan Berry; Sunday, 18th July, 2010, 08:25 PM.
Reason: bass my table
I would like to congratulate the organizers of the Canadian 2010 Open
for the best run and most memorable Canadian Open ever in Toronto in my lifetime!
Unfortunately, for me and others in contention in the under 2000 section, it was spoiled by questionable last round results.
The game that gave the co-winner 6 points had him with a rook and pawn versus a queen in the endgame, which still drew!
You mean to tell me that a master rated 400 points over his opponent, and with 15 minutes on his clock to his opponents 3, can't find the draw that a casual observer was able to see? A rook and bishop pawn still on its 4th
rank!
The full point would only have given him only 6.5, one ninth of the 1,500
dollar prize, whereas the cowinner with his free half point netted $750 as a result.
The free point also cost us 5.5 pointers at least $100 each, and the other
cowinner $250.
It's too bad that Hal Bond would not even address my complaint, even walking away the first time I broached the topic, and not even taking my
concerns very seriously.
It is up to the organizers if they are going to allow last rounds between different sections, to make sure that all the results are on the level, and
to investigate any suspicious ones.
They did not do that, and that spoiled it for me.
Not only sour grapes, but incredibly boorish and in extremely poor taste.
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