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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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"eNotate is the electronic scoresheet from the North American Chess Association. eNotate conforms to the laws of chess as defined by the appropriate chess federations. The USCF has certified eNotate as meeting their requirements for electronic scoresheets.
eNotate requires a Windows Mobile based Pocket PC device running Windows Mobile 5.0 or Windows Mobile 6.0. eNotate will NOT operate on Windows Mobile 2002/2003. eNotate will not operate on iPhone, Blackberry devices or Palm O/S devices. eNotate will NOT operate on laptop/desktop computers.
This software itself costs $25. The Windows based handheld usually costs about $70-$100 depending on model and condition on eBay. On top of that, I would suggest you get Pocket Fritz. You will end up with a very decent chess handheld for about only $150, which worth much more than MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager in my opinion."
Screenshots and other details are on the above website.
"eNotate is the electronic scoresheet from the North American Chess Association. eNotate conforms to the laws of chess as defined by the appropriate chess federations. The USCF has certified eNotate as meeting their requirements for electronic scoresheets.
eNotate requires a Windows Mobile based Pocket PC device running Windows Mobile 5.0 or Windows Mobile 6.0. eNotate will NOT operate on Windows Mobile 2002/2003. eNotate will not operate on iPhone, Blackberry devices or Palm O/S devices. eNotate will NOT operate on laptop/desktop computers.
This software itself costs $25. The Windows based handheld usually costs about $70-$100 depending on model and condition on eBay. On top of that, I would suggest you get Pocket Fritz. You will end up with a very decent chess handheld for about only $150, which worth much more than MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager in my opinion."
Screenshots and other details are on the above website.
Hugh - are you suggesting that people use an electronic scoresheet with a chess engine in it? No matter how you disable the engine when recording, I can't imagine how one could eliminate suspicion.
The reason Monroi is the 'default' device is because it is not capable of running a chess engine. This program is practically useless in competition because all these devices can run chess engines.
I would love to see a cheaper competitor to the Monroi device... that or the device priced at a reasonable level.
The reason Monroi is the 'default' device is because it is not capable of running a chess engine. This program is practically useless in competition because all these devices can run chess engines.
I would love to see a cheaper competitor to the Monroi device...
How much would you be ready to pay for a Monroi device ? What would be reasonable for you ?
The USCF has certified Enotate - so there must be something "right" with it.
I am not suggesting that people use it - the post is just for your (and my) information.
I guess it got USCF certification because it properly logs the moves of a game. My major problem with it is the use of outdated Windows CE technology - that is the reason they will bundle a refurbished Dell Axim for (I think) $125... Those devices can run other software (and should therefore not be allowed at a tournament!) but perhaps if you are running the Enotate, it takes over the machine and the USCF is satisfied with that...
The Monroi devices are ok, but rather pricey for their limited use. I believe every monroi device has the capability to communicate with the server (as well as being used stand alone), so I presume every purchaser has to pay for that capability whether or not they are interested in ever using that feature. [look, I understand what a marketing nightmare it would be to have two versions of the device: one *with* remote connectivity and one *without*, and the resultant confusion at a tournament where some people have the "right" version and some don't etc]
A purely standalone recording device that can store pgn into an SD card should be more like $50-$75? THEN perhaps people would consider using them instead of a scoresheet or scorebook etc. It would save having to enter the moves manually into some other software that saves the pgn file.
Monroi made the decision to create the uber-device rather than go after the cheaper version - fair enough. It is a closed device (ie: it wont run arbitrary software from just anywhere) so that it can be seen to be uncompromised by definition and therefore acceptable for tournament use.
Well given that my organization created eNotate I can tell you how it's 'right'.
When you enter eNotate in game recording mode it does a few things:
(1) disables Wi-fi connections (and you have to manually re-enable it)
(2) disables the use of any of the physical buttons on the PDA
(3) doesn't allow you to switch between the eNotate program and other programs
Let's assume you have Pocket Fritz on that same PDA. You'd have to end the game recording. Manually enter the position into Pocket Fritz. Go back into eNotate and start a new recording game, enter in your position again to continue. Way to many clicks and per the rules you can't use it to analyze as a second board, its to record and put aside just like your regular notation.
Keep in mind that tournament organizers have their right to disallow the use of any electronic scoresheet - whether be MonRoi or eNotate and some do.
We've only tested this on the Dell Axim x50, X51 and the HP IPAQ 1955. We have some customers that have used other models. We give the option for people to acquire their own hardware if they feel they can get the correct ones or we offer them the service of getting it for them.
So far we've had great positive reception from users of eNotate.
Part of the reason why we don't have it operate on phone based devices - because USCF would not certify it then.
We are working on a port to Android based PDA's which can be acquired at low prices and we're talking to a manufacturer to mass produce the hardware sets but don't expect to see that available for some time as we just started the process. We're also toying with porting to Apple iPod Touch and iPads.
We also purposely don't run on Windows Mobile 2002/2003 because of memory retention issues with them when the primary battery fails (wipes out everything). This doesn't happen in Windows Mobile 5 and above.
Last edited by Sevan Muradian; Friday, 23rd July, 2010, 10:59 PM.
How much would you be ready to pay for a Monroi device ? What would be reasonable for you ?
Lets break down what the device actually does... it records chess games. This is a pretty simple function. Yes it can remotely transmit to a central computer, but I could care less about this function, a simple device that records the game and I could plug into my laptop via USB cable would be just fine for me.
Last year my daughter came home with a scholastic 'book club' catalog where I there was a portable touch screen chess computer... 9 levels of play and a back light for easy viewing... all for the huge price of .... $20.
seeing that I can buy an fully functional touchscreen chess computer for a small fraction of the monroi device, I'm positive that it can be made for FAR cheaper. The monroi device kinda reminds me of Amazon's "Kindle"... people rave about the Kindle, but in reality all it does is print black and white text to a screen... where as a far more functional netbook costs less and does way more.
Sorry Monroi, but $50 is the most I would ever pay for such a device.
I guess it got USCF certification because it properly logs the moves of a game. My major problem with it is the use of outdated Windows CE technology - that is the reason they will bundle a refurbished Dell Axim for (I think) $125... Those devices can run other software (and should therefore not be allowed at a tournament!) but perhaps if you are running the Enotate, it takes over the machine and the USCF is satisfied with that...
The Monroi devices are ok, but rather pricey for their limited use. I believe every monroi device has the capability to communicate with the server (as well as being used stand alone), so I presume every purchaser has to pay for that capability whether or not they are interested in ever using that feature. [look, I understand what a marketing nightmare it would be to have two versions of the device: one *with* remote connectivity and one *without*, and the resultant confusion at a tournament where some people have the "right" version and some don't etc]
A purely standalone recording device that can store pgn into an SD card should be more like $50-$75? THEN perhaps people would consider using them instead of a scoresheet or scorebook etc. It would save having to enter the moves manually into some other software that saves the pgn file.
Monroi made the decision to create the uber-device rather than go after the cheaper version - fair enough. It is a closed device (ie: it wont run arbitrary software from just anywhere) so that it can be seen to be uncompromised by definition and therefore acceptable for tournament use.
The Monroi is a high end unit, built to last. It is not fair comparing it price wise to a piece of software that runs on a refurbished hand-held computer. A new hand-held computer will set you back $400 or more.
If something happened to my Monroi, I would replace it with another Monroi. It shines in a tournament set up for Monroi but it is quite convenient and so much better than a paper score sheet as a stand alone unit. More than 98% of my use has been as a stand alone unit.
I had trouble with the Monroi units when I first ran into them at the Guelph ProAm tournaments but it was a matter of just not being used to them. I persisted in using them at every opportunity thinking that this was the future of chess scoresheets. It is so much easier to download the games from a SD card than to try to decipher a score sheet and enter the moves into my database of personal games (which is what I used to do before I got the Monroi). At the 2009 Toronto Open I used one in every round without any issues and then made the jump and bought my own shortly after that.
Monroi seem to have gone high end on all of the components in part to avoid service problems. The screen alone costs more to source than what you are suggesting the device should cost. The screen should last ten years. You are never going to achieve economies of scale in a stand alone device to bring the price down much lower. There aren't enough chess players to justify the longer production runs which would be required.
That is not to say that prices won't eventually come down. They will come down because of new technologies and the inexorable consequences of Moore's Law. When prices come down it will be because new technology will allow the underlying software to be installed on a device that looks like a flexible sheet of plastic.
We're also toying with porting to Apple iPod Touch and iPads.
I could see that working although the combined price of your inexpensive software and the somewhat pricey iPad would still come at a steep price. I played with one at Best Buy and they look neat but I really can't justify the expense given the limited chess software that it could run. The Ipod option would be less pricey but still not trivially cheap.
The USCF has certified Enotate - so there must be something "right" with it.
I am not suggesting that people use it - the post is just for your (and my) information.
It has not been certified by the CFC nor by FIDE which would be more relevant to me and most of the readers of chesstalk. The other issue I see if it does run on a device capable of running pocket Fritz, what is to stop some programmer from hacking the software or generating something that looks and acts exactly like it with the safeguards removed?
Last edited by Vlad Drkulec; Saturday, 24th July, 2010, 01:47 AM.
Reason: Punctuation
The Monroi is a high end unit, built to last. It is not fair comparing it price wise to a piece of software that runs on a refurbished hand-held computer. A new hand-held computer will set you back $400 or more.
I have another hand held device that cost me $125... it has a two screens, one of them is a very high quality touch screen. Both my kids use one and it still survives. It is very well built and has survived at least 3 years of pretty good abuse. It is capable of connecting to other devices and has the ability to connect to servers via wireless internet. It also has two color displays, a mic and sound. It also uses a pretty simple method for keeping different programs from being able to interfere with each other... A truly affordable multipurpose device...
A Nintendo DS...
Anyone who has used one of these devices knows that it is built with quality and is also very affordable for a multifunction device.
Now look at the Monroi device. One simple black and white function and wireless connectivity. At 3x the price of a Nintendo DS.
I still stand by my statement that the monroi device can be built and sold at a profit for FAR cheaper.
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