2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

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  • 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

    Toronto and surrounding Region players,

    Here I am presenting some informal information about the upcoming 2010 Thanksgiving Open, to be held at 918 Bathurst ave in Toronto, some of which bears some relevance to comments and suggestions that came my way after the 2010 Toronto Labour Day Open at the same location.

    Firstly, the tournament lighting. The top 16 boards did not have any issues here but some players brought to me a concern that the lighting in the main room could have been better.

    what I can say at the moment is that I agree with these comments, and also the people at 918 Bathurst agree. i have been advised that it is their intention to take steps to improve the lighting in the main hall, and to have these steps implemented BEFORE the 2010 Thanksgiving Open. I will present more information when it becomes available, but right now I do believe players who play in the 2010 Thanksgiving open can expect this aspect to see an improvement.

    Secondly, sectional placements. some players addressed various concerns such as: -- I'd like to play in the FIDE rated section but my rating isn't high enough, or -- I don't want to play against too many lower rated players who are playing up a section, as examples.

    I am going to propose an alteration to the section format which I intend to implement for the 2010 Toronto Thanksgiving Open, provided that I receive feedback in the next short while that sounds positive or that does not sound negative. Here is the proposal:

    SECTION 1: minimum rating of 2100, and FIDE rated. elite players are guaranteed to get only relatively strong opposition. only open prizes here, no class prizes.

    SECTION 2: ratings between 1900 and 2300 and FIDE rated. this means TWO sections are FIDE rated and 1900 + players have the opportunity to get FIDE ratings. 1900+ players can get the opportunity to play masters but not IMs.

    SECTION 3: ratings between 1700 and 2100.

    SECTION 4: ratings between 1500 and 1900.

    SECTION 5: ratings less than 1700.

    what is mist directly obvious is that the rating ranges are overlapping.
    this may look a lot different but actually it is not that different, because currently players are allowed to play up a section if they choose. one key difference is it gives a clearly defined rating range for each section, so that all players will know what kind of competion they can expect to face when entering a section. this is an attempt to ease the concern of players who enter a section not knowing how many players may be playing up from a lower rating range or what ratings these players may have. players between the ratings of 1500 and 2300 who wish to avoid playing against opposition too far below them have the choice of the higher section to play in rather than the lower. if they choose the lower section, they know what to expect in terms of opposition. also in this format, it is my intention to remove the extra charge for playing up a section. the standard entry fee permits a player to play in either section that their rating fits within. in no case, except the lowest section or possibly the highest, would a player be pitted against an opponent in excess of 400 points above or below their rating.

    Let me explain it a different way:

    RATING SECTION
    above 2300 must play in section 1
    2100 - 2300 choose section 1 or section 2
    1900 - 2100 choose section 2 or section 3
    1700 - 1900 choose section 3 or section 4
    1500 - 1700 choose section 4 or section 5
    under 1500 must play in section 5


    Alright, there you have my proposal. it is attempting to fix or improve on some concerns brought to me without drastically altering the opportunities offered to players.

    at the moment I am only intending to try this out for one event, but I will consider keeping it for some further events if the feedback is positive. if you have an important opinion about this proposal,or about another matter that you do not see mentioned here,that you would like to communicate to me, please do so at bryan.lamb@rogers.com.

    Thank you to all the chess players who support the Toronto events and especially those who offer moral support, even if it is just an offhand thank you. It does matter to me.

    Bryan Lamb

  • #2
    Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

    Walking through the window should be not allowed :D (maybe a duct tape would solve the issue)

    A new sections' structure: Only the first section defines that it has no class prizes. What about other sections (Section 2 - $$$ class prize for 2100)?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

      Many A class players have started the process of getting a FIDE rating by scoring against an already FIDE-rated player in a previous tournament such as the Canadian Open. They will still need to play 3 players in this event to advance towards the 9-games required to get a FIDE rating, but they no longer need to score any points. Some players, like Alex Ferreria, did become established players in FIDE's September list. The more established players we get, the easier it will be in the future for more players to get a FIDE rating. It will also help those seeking IM norms as a second unrated player counts as 1200.

      In other news at the Labour Day was that a new weekly chess club will be starting next Monday at that location on Bathurst (north of Bloor). And that Artiem Samsonkin is interested in having active tournaments at the Woodbridge Chess Mates Chess Club, 8090 Kipling Avenue (and Hwy 7) (which meets Friday evenings). He is also interested in giving simults in chess clubs.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

        This is a very interesting and innovative idea. In effect you are lowering the floor by 100 points for those people who are playing for the money in the lower section. Even though I was fortunate to win the under 2300 prize in the Labour Day tournament I will probably choose the higher section in the Thanksgiving tournament.

        I liked the way the Labour Day Tournament was set up with floors of 2000 for the top section. Every game I played was hotly contested aside from the game with Artiom Samsonkin who beat me quite convincingly (as he usually does). A floor of 1900 is also quite acceptable to me though I prefer to play stronger players wherever possible. For an out of towner such as myself winning a prize merely covers the entry fee and hotel costs and part of the gas costs for driving up to Toronto and back. If money is the motivator for me then I would be wise to just stay home. As things have been going in Windsor I could probably get an impromptu tournament together on the same weekend that would give me competition similar to your 1900 to 2300 section at a cost of about $10 versus the $350 that the Toronto Thanksgiving tournament will cost. It is very much like starting the event with first prize already won without the eight hours of driving that tournaments in Toronto require for Windsor area competitiors.

        I play in your tournaments because you provide me with the chance to play strong players who show me what my deficiencies are as a chess player and thus give me the opportunity to make adjustments and hopefully improvements in my play.

        Thanks for another great directing and organizing effort. I look forward to many more from you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

          Hi Brian!
          First of all, thanks for another great tournament. It was enjoyable as usual.

          I am very much neutral about this proposal, I think almost nothing will change..I dont remember the last time I played anyone under 2100 in these tournaments anyway. But if this is what the people want, thats okay.

          A friend of mine played a fide unrated player in the first round, and was not happy about it. So winning the game did not add to his rating, as it should. He was so unhappy, he made me post this on chesstalk :)
          His suggestion...to make the open section not only FIDE rated, but also allow only people that already have a FIDE rating to play in the event. Again, I dont think this will change much at all, (there are not many 2100+ cfc players who do not also have a fide rating) but it makes sense.

          Nikolay

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

            Hi Bryan;
            The section splits seem more reasonable now but I think if you were to charge $20.00 if player wants to move up a section that you would stop a lot of the rating differences being too large.

            At Labour Day Some players paid to move up two sections and I really don't feel that they should be able to do that. One section is Fine . Moving up two was a little much. Some of my friends were playing against players with more than 300 pt rating differences.

            One suggestion could be that a player can only move up if they are within 50 points of their rating section.
            In other words if you have an U1700 rating and want to move up to U1900 section you'd have to have a rating of 1650 or more. This would not allow anyone Under 1650 from moving up. I feel the quality of play goes down when the rating difference is too great.

            I know myself I start playing like a 1300 player when I'm paired against them.

            Comment


            • #7
              Good Sectional Restructuring

              Hi Bryan:

              I like your proposal.

              I like to play up when given a chance, to play stronger opposition. But I also agree that the difference in rating should not be too great. So limiting playing up as you have done is fine with me. And for the stronger players, at least the maximum rating difference they will face in terms of weaker players will be 400 pts., and this likely only for the first round, or maybe two. I will be in the 1700 - 1900 election group, and so I'll be able to play in the U 2100 group, which is quite adequate for my desire to get a chance at some stronger players, if I play well in the early rounds ( or maybe if I get paired up early ).

              I hope you implement your proposal. I do think though, that you could continue to charge $ 10 to those who do want to play up, to lessen a bit the number of larger rating differences. I'm willing to pay a bit for the right to play up, to import a small disincentive into the system.

              Bob
              Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Thursday, 9th September, 2010, 07:19 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                Hi Bryan,

                This proposal sounds pretty good to me.

                I realize you are trying to give some players the chance to continue to improve here, while protecting the interests of those who want to avoid weaker opposition (the same goal?) so this is a very positive attempt to resolve some ratings issues.

                Issues you might run into in this situation are:

                1) People signing up for one section and then asking to hop to the other they are allowed to play in after 1 or more rounds. This may happen as players find out which of their potential opponents have signed up for which of their available sections. A suggestion is to have no "hopping" allowed. Once a player is signed up for that section, they must remain in that section.

                2) Another issue could be you have almost nobody in one of the sections, e.g. the 2100-2300 could end up with 2 players while the 2100+ section could have 30. In this instance you might have to say if a minimum number of players is not reached within a section (e.g 8 for a 5 round swiss), you would have to combine 2 sections. The players would have to be clear on this beforehand to prevent complaints.

                3) The last thing I can think of off-hand is the same issue as above with regards to pre-registration, people trying to hop as the pre-registered list changes and gets more players. Of course its all your call.

                I like your ideas and am greatful for your continued efforts as a tournament director in Toronto. The Sudbury crew is greatful for a chance to come down to T. and show its stuff in a well run tournament. Keep up the good work!

                Mavros

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                  speaking of lighting, which was on the dark side, I noticed they have a cloth blocking the skylight

                  would it improve things to remove that? wondering why they have the cloth there?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                    Originally posted by Zeljko Kitich View Post
                    would it improve things to remove that? wondering why they have the cloth there?
                    Only a thought: it might block a direct sunshine - without covers, it might overheat a hall completely.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                      Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
                      Only a thought: it might block a direct sunshine - without covers, it might overheat a hall completely.
                      I think you're right, I forgot about the overheating issue

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                        I expect Egis to look into these matters......as he is a Physicist.....heat of fusion......etc. lol

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 2010 Toronto Labour Day and 2010 Thanksgiving Day Open: comments and discussion

                          Originally posted by Erwin Casareno View Post
                          I expect Egis to look into these matters......as he is a Physicist.....heat of fusion......etc. lol
                          Physicists don't split hairs. They split atoms. :)
                          Gary Ruben
                          CC - IA and SIM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Good Sectional Restructuring

                            The problem with sections is anyone not allowed to play in the top section has no chance to win the event. They only have a chance to win a lower section, no matter how well they play.

                            What I have difficulty figuring out is why players in lower sections would play in an event where their entry fee subsidizes a prize fund, weighted to the top section, which they have no chance of winning and for which they aren't even allowed to play.

                            I always figured with sections the entries fees collected for the section should go to the prizes for that section. Frankly, as far as the top section goes, if I'm not allowed to play there, I wouldn't care if they were playing for Venezualan Bolivars, if that's the currency they want to use to pay for their entry fee for their section.
                            Gary Ruben
                            CC - IA and SIM

                            Comment

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