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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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I'm at a crossroads here, David. There's something you can do for me.
I can play stock market. I can play poker. I can eat Kraft Dinner when I lose, instead of posting games.
So now what you can do for me. Tell me something. Do you think anyone who might have played through that game got anything from it or was my posting it a total waste of time?
So now what you can do for me. Tell me something. Do you think anyone who might have played through that game got anything from it or was my posting it a total waste of time?
Total waste of time (I say this as someone who *did* play through it). Same information is available in many other places, and even then, I would be fairly certain that the position after 6...h6 will not be on the board in a single game in Canada in the next year.
So, you have a super obscure but known to be bad opening being played and beaten with the known to be superior moves, and completed by a middlegame that has no comments outside of generic things like "this is the toughest defence" or "black has no hope".
You tell me what anyone is supposed to get out of it. Actually, don't because I don't care anymore. Just go back to your correspondence games against "2300s" who play this kind of garbage against opponents who are permitted to consult books and can't even hope for surprise factor or OTB tension mistakes.
Total waste of time (I say this as someone who *did* play through it). Same information is available in many other places, and even then, I would be fairly certain that the position after 6...h6 will not be on the board in a single game in Canada in the next year.
I don't know about the next year but according to the database Hugh Brodie keeps 6.... h6 7. Ne6 has been played twice in the games he's archived. The score was 50%. One win for black and one win for white. Tom O'Donnell beat it against a 2200 player but I don't suppose it would have made much difference what his opponent had played against him. The loss came in 2008 in a junior event.
The third game with 6... h6, the player of white didn't try to sacrifice the knight and moved it back but still won.
In that database, against the Caro Kann as white it shows you have 3 wins and 5 loses. With black you have 1 win and 2 loses. Maybe I counted wrong.
In that database, against the Caro Kann as white it shows you have 3 wins and 5 loses. With black you have 1 win and 2 loses. Maybe I counted wrong.
That's why I was interested to see a post called "crushing the caro kann", and why I took the time to review the game. It's also why I was disappointed to see it was a post about how to play a book like to beat a known bad variation, instead of an actual "how to beat the caro kann" post.
For example, you could write a post titled "crushing 1...e5" showing 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.Qh5 Nf6 4.Qxf7# and it would be a waste of time. Saying I have a poor record against 1...e5 doesn't change that.
Tom O'Donnell beat it against a 2200 player but I don't suppose it would have made much difference what his opponent had played against him.
I'm sure I have had the position after Ne6 at least twice, maybe even three times in tournament games. The archived game is probably from a Quebec Closed I played in, if Black is Alaa-Eddine Moussa (sp?). Another game, for which I do not have the gamescore, was played in Barrie at least ten years ago against an 1800 if I recall correctly. I think in that game I didn't play Nxf8, he eventually took the N, and I won fairly speedily. I think David is wrong in that there is a pretty good chance that someone, somewhere in Canada is going to play ...h6 vs Ng5 in that position. However, I will guess that Black will be rated no higher than 1800. I can't imagine a 2300, even without access to opening books, playing ...h6 anymore since Ne6 is very well known now.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Why is this even being debated, the caro-kann has been busted by the apocalypse attack!!
e4 c6 nf3 d5 exd5 cxd5 Ne5!
As prophesy in the bible has foretold,
And I saw heaven opened, (the pawn exchange)
and behold a white horse... (Ne5)
Revelations 19:11
It all makes sense, I expect once this response gets popular, the caro-kann will quickly die out. You might try to use your engine, and apparently acquire equality, but how dare the engines try to compare themselves to the Gods. Obviously it is a no-brainer which one to trust. The engine's faulty analysis is no match for omniscience!
Kaspy made similar crucial blunder, and mankind lost primacy on this deep blue ball; the original Tal masterpiece had Lembit commit hari-kiri .
it's spelt "harakiri" and it's the SECOND BEST FILM OF ALL-TIME
it's also the second best film by kobayashi of all-time. what does that tell you? that kobayashi was a directorial manifestation of god? i agree.........
everytime it hurts, it hurts just like the first (and then you cry till there's no more tears)
I'm sure I have had the position after Ne6 at least twice, maybe even three times in tournament games. The archived game is probably from a Quebec Closed I played in, if Black is Alaa-Eddine Moussa (sp?). Another game, for which I do not have the gamescore, was played in Barrie at least ten years ago against an 1800 if I recall correctly. I think in that game I didn't play Nxf8, he eventually took the N, and I won fairly speedily. I think David is wrong in that there is a pretty good chance that someone, somewhere in Canada is going to play ...h6 vs Ng5 in that position. However, I will guess that Black will be rated no higher than 1800. I can't imagine a 2300, even without access to opening books, playing ...h6 anymore since Ne6 is very well known now.
Yes, I think that's who the opponent is in the database.
Even though the trap is well known, it's worth putting out the bait to see if the opponent will bite. Even if he doesn't you still have a playable game. 6. .. e6 7. N1f3 Bd6 8. Qe2 h6 9. Ne4 and white stands OK. I notice you won from the black side a couple of years ago. Sokolov - Spraggett ended in a draw in a lively game. Probably at the real high levels of play the 4. ... Nd7 line is mainly a drawing line which is OK for black in a match.
With the Caro Kann, my impression has been that black is mostly playing for a draw. When white presses too hard black often gets a good game. So I keep it simple. Often players forget easy traps when they haven't seen them in awhile. It's not theory they are studing anymore.
I didn't know how strong the team was and hadn't played that man before. These are teams we put together ourselves and our team, The Gambiteers Guild, was put together for social reasons. It's an international team in that we're all in different countries.
With my opponent, the team players seem to all be from France and while I didn't know this player, their board one was my opponent in one of the correspondence Olympiads. So I was expecting a harder game than I got.
That's why I was interested to see a post called "crushing the caro kann", and why I took the time to review the game. It's also why I was disappointed to see it was a post about how to play a book like to beat a known bad variation, instead of an actual "how to beat the caro kann" post.
For example, you could write a post titled "crushing 1...e5" showing 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.Qh5 Nf6 4.Qxf7# and it would be a waste of time. Saying I have a poor record against 1...e5 doesn't change that.
Probably "crushing A Caro Kann" would have been a better title but as they say in show business, it won't sell much pop corn. How many books have you seen that claim to Beating the whatever, and when you get the book and look at the games ask who would play that stuff?
People make the mistakes time after time. As an example, I went long natural gas last week. I've never made money on a natural gas ETF's. Can't beat it and can't lay off it. Human nature I guess.
it's spelt "harakiri" and it's the SECOND BEST FILM OF ALL-TIME
it's also the second best film by kobayashi of all-time. what does that tell you? that kobayashi was a directorial manifestation of god? i agree.........
Ben, that Kovalchuk guy in your auto signature, I ended up with him in a hocky pool. All he does is score goals and get assists. I still have no idea if he's a 1. e4 or 1. d4 chess player.
Ben, that Kovalchuk guy in your auto signature, I ended up with him in a hocky pool. All he does is score goals and get assists. I still have no idea if he's a 1. e4 or 1. d4 chess player.
Should I trade him for a team bus?
kovalchuk should not be traded for anything, OR EVEN EVERYTHING. not only is he a star winger for the 2011 stanley cup champion new jersey devils, but he's married to a hot lithuanian pop star
With the Caro Kann, my impression has been that black is mostly playing for a draw.
Hi Gary
Black has no real problem playing for a win with the Caro-Kann if he wants to, except perhaps against the Classical Variation (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4), as you selected.
In that case, as you will know, Black can choose the possibly not-so-suspect 4...Nf6, with the idea of unbalanced play after 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 (5...exf6 may not be so unpromising as its reputation, even if Black needs to win).
Another option is 4...Bf5, which can be Sicilian-like in case of the modern main lines with opposite sides castling - though it can be inconvenient to avoid a Q-swap in case White may want one.
Then there is 4...Nd7 (as your opponent played), which need not be way too dull if either side takes risks. However many Caro players play it safe no matter how White plays, and would be content with a draw from the get go. These are often 'drawing masters' or risk-averse players who were attracted to the Caro due to its traditional reputation for solidity.
Since taking up the Caro some 3-4 years ago my performance rating with it has been about 100 points above my average rating for my Caro games. Possibly because it suits me, and/or not many 2000+ local players play it in Ottawa. So far I've always played the Caro to win, though many times I've played the old dull 4...Bf5 lines, i.e. with each side playing 0-0-0, fully expecting my opponent either to over-press or simply play weak move(s) at some point.
At one time decades ago Ulf Andersson played the Black side of a Caro that made it into a magazine I read. The title of the article was "Ulf in sheep's clothing" :). That's what I feel like when I play the Caro. It may be an underpowered opening if you want to win fast, but at the end of the day you still can eat lamb chops.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
That's what I feel like when I play the Caro. It may be an underpowered opening if you want to win fast, but at the end of the day you still can eat lamb chops.
I like that. :) Mostly what I get is the players who like 4. ... Nd7. One of my books has only that line. It's an old book but the theory has been well worked by the computers.
I like that. :) Mostly what I get is the players who like 4. ... Nd7. One of my books has only that line. It's an old book but the theory has been well worked by the computers.
4...Nd7 was the main line for some time, until 4...Bf5 came back in vogue.
'Theory' worked out using computers can only be trusted so far, naturally, just like theory/evaluations from strictly humans. Positional stuff being evaluated by computers probably moreso. Even tactical stuff is not a sure thing, if complex enough. Try 'solving' the Najdorf Poisoned Pawn with a computer.
The 4...Nd7 Classical Caro can be either positional or tactical (or a mix like most openings), and in any event once a line has been 'evaluated' by a computer, humans still have to play it out. In correspondence the difference is that one can keep using a computer, at least avoiding blunders.
A friend once told me years ago he played by mail, and opponents could be just as careless as in otb. I wonder how much that still happens in the age of playing programs.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Tuesday, 19th October, 2010, 08:59 AM.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
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