Your "Morphy Number"

[Hugh Brodie]

If you're not familiar with the term "Morphy Number" here it is (all info from Wikipedia):

"The Morphy number is a measure of how closely a chess player is connected to Paul Morphy (1837–1884) by way of playing chess games.[1] People who played a chess game with Morphy have a Morphy Number of 1. Players who did not play Morphy but played someone with a Morphy Number of 1 have a Morphy Number of 2. People who played someone with a Morphy Number of 2 have a Morphy Number of 3, et cetera.

The idea is similar to the Erdős number for mathematicians and the Bacon number for actors. For example, Garry Kasparov, along with most current top players, has a Morphy Number of 5: Kasparov played Ratmir Kholmov (Morphy number 4), who played Mikhail Botvinnik (Morphy number 3), who played Reginald Michell (Morphy number 2), who played John Owen (Morphy number 1), who played Morphy. (Chess historian Taylor Kingston thinks that it is likely that Kasparov played an offhand game with Botvinnik, which would give him a Morphy Number of 4.)[1] Kingston states that the idea of the Morphy Number may have originated in a June 2000 note by Tim Krabbé."

I am a 4 - since I have played several listed below in the 3 group. Maroczy gave a few simuls in Montreal in the 1920's, and my grandfather might have played him. If my father (a kid at the time) was there, and pushed a few Pawns with Maroczy, he would be a (living) 3.

Some players with a Morphy Number of 1:

Adolf Anderssen
Henry Bird
James Mortimer
John Owen
Louis Paulsen

A Morphy Number of 2:

Semyon Alapin
Ossip Bernstein
Joseph Blackburne
Amos Burn
Mikhail Chigorin
Isidor Gunsberg
David Janowski
S. Lipschütz
Emanuel Lasker
George Mackenzie
James Mason
Jacques Mieses
Géza Maróczy
Reginald Michell
Harry Pillsbury
Carl Schlechter
Jackson Showalter
Wilhelm Steinitz
Siegbert Tarrasch
Savielly Tartakower
Richard Teichmann
Szymon Winawer
Eugene Znosko-Borovsky
Johannes Zukertort

And a Morphy Number of 3:

Alexander Alekhine
Leonard Barden
Pal Benko
Arthur Bisguier
Efim Bogolyubov
Fedor Bogatyrchuk[2]
Mikhail Botvinnik
David Bronstein
José Raúl Capablanca
Martin Christoffel
Arnold Denker
Marcel Duchamp
Oldřich Duras
Erich Eliskases
Max Euwe
Reuben Fine
Salo Flohr
Svetozar Gligorić
Borislav Ivkov
Paul Keres
George Koltanowski
Bent Larsen
Edward Lasker
Andor Lilienthal
Frank Marshall
Stuart Milner-Barry
John Stuart Morrison[citation needed]
Miguel Najdorf
Aron Nimzowitsch
Friðrik Ólafsson
Jonathan Penrose
Arturo Pomar
Lodewijk Prins
C.J.S. Purdy
Samuel Reshevsky
Akiba Rubinstein
Friedrich Sämisch
Rudolf Spielmann
Herman Steiner
Milan Vidmar
Norman Whitaker
Daniel Yanofsky

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

For example, Garry Kasparov, along with most current top players, has a Morphy Number of 5: Kasparov played Ratmir Kholmov (Morphy number 4), who played Mikhail Botvinnik (Morphy number 3), who played Reginald Michell (Morphy number 2), who played John Owen (Morphy number 1), who played Morphy. (Chess historian Taylor Kingston thinks that it is likely that Kasparov played an offhand game with Botvinnik, which would give him a Morphy Number of 4.)"

And a Morphy Number of 3:
...
Bent Larsen

Kasparov played Larsen at least in SWIFT 1987
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess...on?cid=1015539
Thus, as I understand, Kasparov number must be 4 even without speculating about Botvinnik.

[Fred McKim]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Presumably Canada has lots of 4's, either from playing with Yanofsky or playing Keres on his simul tour in the 70's, or the smattering of appearances of the american GM's and Larsen here over the years.

As these games were for the most part 35+ years ago, I would speculate the majority of the 4's are 50+ and probably most non-active.

Hugh, you and I have played a couple of times, making me a 5. I know I've played a bunch of other Canadian 4's as well. Probably someone will put a bunch of names up of the more commonly known 4's.

Perhaps there are even more Canadian 3's.

I suspect that most tournament players in Canada and probably North America are probably 6's (for example I've played all of the PEI players and a lot of NB/NS players who have been members for at least a couple of years) or at the most 7's.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

the more commonly known 4's.

Lawrence Day (4) vs F Bohatirchuk (3)

[Alex Ferreira]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Hi,

Interesting, I had never heard of a "Morphy Number", but was once asked what my "Kasparov Number" was, where this number was as to who beat Kasparov. So someone who beat Kasparov has a Kasparov # of 1, someone who beat someone like Kramnik, Karpov, Topalov or Ivanchuk would have a Kasparov Number of 2, etc... It was an interesting game for us mortals to play. Draws don't count. If I counted a simul result of mine I'd have a Kasparov # of 3, but never tried figuring it out in real 1 vs 1 chess.

Alex F.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Lawrence Day (4) vs F Bohatirchuk (3)

Well, those of us who played Duncan Suttles back in the old days must be at least fives as well. I don't see Spassky on the threes list, but Keres is and he played in a BC tournament just before he died, so there must be a few fours still living in B.C.

Do we count simuls? Speed games? Maybe we should add a letter to the number because surely a 4"T" (tournament game) would have a closer connection to Morphy than a 4"S" (simul) of whom there are lots in BC since Keres played a 50 board simul here back in the 1960's, or a 4 "A" (active) or 4"B" (blitz).

If we're going to be snobs about such things we should take it to the limit! You mere 5S players are nothing next to a 5T like me. :-)

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

"Kasparov Number"

There was once a website what could provide those numbers based on 200X chessbase database. At this moment "This domain was made unavailable"

[Fred McKim]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Hi,

Interesting, I had never heard of a "Morphy Number", but was once asked what my "Kasparov Number" was, where this number was as to who beat Kasparov. So someone who beat Kasparov has a Kasparov # of 1, someone who beat someone like Kramnik, Karpov, Topalov or Ivanchuk would have a Kasparov Number of 2, etc... It was an interesting game for us mortals to play. Draws don't count. If I counted a simul result of mine I'd have a Kasparov # of 3, but never tried figuring it out in real 1 vs 1 chess.

Alex F.

There is a site that computes your Kasparov number, based on online chess game results. Anyone wh obeat Garry is a 1. If you beat someone who beat Garry you're a 2, etc.

Hmm: Just tried and ibeatgarry.com seems to be out of business.

Anyway, this one is a bit more challenging as it has to presumably be a win in a tournament game. I forget my direct path, but I beat someone who beat Tom O'D, but I forget if Tom's number was 2 or 3, so I'm 4 or 5.

[Fred McKim]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Lawrence Day (4) vs F Bohatirchuk (3)

Magnus Smith was also a 3 (found games with Em. Lasker & Maroczy), although I doubt anybody alive has actually played him :D

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

I played two games against J.S. Morrison about 1970 at the old YMCA chess club. He was Canadian Champion in 1911 and so must have played some in the 1800's. This might have given him a M# of 2 if he played in some simuls in his early years. If so, my M# would be a 3.

[Frank Dixon]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Pretty cool concept! I've played IM Lawrence Day (4), so my Morphy number is probably 5. GM Bronstein (3) played against GM Mark Tseitlin, whom I have played, so another 5. Can't see how I can get to 4.

A really neat extension would be to find out the combinations of the lowest Morphy number and the lowest Erdos number!! Pal Erdos, Hungarian super-mathematician, who lived from 1913 to 1996, was a chess player (he preferred blitz and was pretty good at it)! I played him two blitz games in the late 1970s, winning one and drawing one; he was probably about 1800 strength at that time, in his mid-60s. Erdos was known not only for producing more mathematical papers on more topics than anyone in history, but for drinking about 20 cups of coffee per day for most of his life! :)

I've been working on an idea Erdos gave me, off and on for 30 years, and hope to publish my work on this some day! :)

Emanuel Lasker (1868-1941), was not only World Champion at chess, but was also a professional mathematician at various stages of his life. Max Euwe (1901-1981) was also a chess World Champion and a professional mathematician. I'm wondering if either Lasker or Euwe ever met Erdos in mathematical circles; they are not listed as having Erdos number 1, so they didn't collaborate with Erdos on a mathematical paper. But did they play chess against him!? I wouldn't bet against it; Erdos was a world traveller as a mathematician. He probably met Euwe at some point.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

There was once a website what could provide those numbers based on 200X chessbase database. At this moment "This domain was made unavailable"

I once started the programming to figure this out. I stopped when I realized that there were unsolveable problems: e.g. as a Canadian example - Paul Ross has a Morphy number of 1. Of course that's not the same Paul Ross we all know but I found any number of duplicate names in the database and there is no reasonable way of finding and correcting for it.

Another issue, is multiple spellings of a person's name in the databases. ChessBase has me down under I think 4 names (Richard Patterson, Roger Patterson, L.Roger.B. Patterson, Roger1 Patterson). Makes it hard to reliably figure out a Morphy number.

When this came up before, Hugh's point was also that there are lot's of people whose games don't appear in the database, particularly dating back a long way so using a modern database will underestimate (badly) your actual Morphy number.

From what I remember, I tracked down Vaitonis as having a morphy number of 4 from Chess Base games without looking too hard, but he might have been a 3...

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

Kasparov number to beat him might be quite low in Canada. Judit Polgar played in Ontario when she was 10 or so [kasparov number of 1]. I know Brian Hartman (who I've beaten) beat her so my number is 3. Probably there were some others who managed to beat her as well.

Not to mention Charbonneau (via Anand), Bluvstein (via Topalov) as Kasparov 2s. Must be any number of Kasparov (win number) 3s around.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

I guess there's no chance that one day in the future, there'll be an " Armstrong Number ":(

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Your "Morphy Number"

When this came up before, Hugh's point was also that there are lot's of people whose games don't appear in the database, particularly dating back a long way so using a modern database will underestimate (badly) your actual Morphy number.

From what I remember, I tracked down Vaitonis as having a morphy number of 4 from Chess Base games without looking too hard, but he might have been a 3...

I played Vaitonis in a Canadian Open. He played in Europe so he could have been a 3 but I can't find the link.