CYCC 2011 voting result

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Hi Peter:

Seems like we may have to agree to disagree on this.

I feel that you are trying to impose a " judicial " standard of conflict of interest, on a " legislative " decider ( CFC governors ). It may be that these are different, I don't know.

I'd love to hear more opinions from others on this difference Peter and I have on this issue.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

... Conflict of interest is based on " financial interest ":

Random House Dictionary:

" Conflict of Interest ": the situation of a public office holder whose private financial interests might benefit from his or her official actions.
...

Bob, Random House doesn't have a monopoly on determining meanings. For instance, here is a better definition of 'conflict of interest' from Merriam Webster ("better" because, imo, it is not as narrow as the Random House definition):

Definition of CONFLICT OF INTEREST: a conflict between the private interests and the official responsibilities of a person in a position of trust

... It is seems therefore that it is not a mere question of " objectivity " ...

Bob, with all due respect you seem to be having a lot of trouble coming to grips with this matter. Conflict of interest has ***EVERYTHING*** to do with objectivity.

... The section 2 of the Handbook, Bylaw 2, s. 15 clearly states:

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

Whenever a proposal is being considered which puts any CFC officer in a potential conflict of interest he shall declare the conflict and abstain from discussion, voting or other involvement in the matter.

Using the dictionary definition, the " potential conflict of interest " is based on " financial interest ". ...

Actually, Bob, the handbook does not specifically state that you are to use Random House's narrow definition of conflict of interest, does it?

I have more to say but gotta go. Will return later.

[Yelizaveta Orlova]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

This was posted by Bob Gillanders on the CFC board:

Congratulations to Richmond Hill.

I [Bob G.] posted this message from Lyle on the governors board in the wee hours this morning:


Gentlemen, this has been the closest vote in recent CFC history!

Richmond Hill (14) Armstrong, Bond, Brammall, Craft, Gillanders, Haley, Jin, Mallon, Marghetis, McDonald, Moore, Nadeau, Nunes, von Keitz

Toronto (12) Barron, Birarov, I Bluvshtein, M Bluvshtein, Craver, Dutton, Field, Leblanc, McKim, Palsson, Smith, Zeromskis

Abstentions: none

Good luck to the Richmond Hill organizers and I hope they have a great tournament!

Lyle Craver
Secretary, Chess Federation of Canada


ps. The Executive are now exploring a Canadian Open only bid from the Toronto team.

to tell you the truth, cycc and canadian open will be better in toronto (in my opinion)

I have even invited some GMs that i met at the olympiad who might be willing to come and play if its in toronto.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

If a governor, compensated or otherwise, sits on the organizing committee of a bidder then this is an absolutely clear case of conflict of interest. How can someone who occupies a position on the organizing committee for Bidder A make a credible claim that he can act impartially with respect to bids from Bidders B, C and D vis-a-vis the bid from his own organization?

Hi Peter:

Conflict of interest is based on " financial interest ":

Random House Dictionary:

" Conflict of Interest ": the situation of a public office holder whose private financial interests might benefit from his or her official actions.

It is seems therefore that it is not a mere question of " objectivity " - all deciders have biases and have often been lobbied. It is my position that even officers of CFC on Bid Organizing Committees are not necessarily in " conflict of interst " when they subsequently vote on accepting a bid, or on competing bids, as in the recent 2011 CYCC and 2011 CO cases.

The section 2 of the Handbook, Bylaw 2, s. 15 clearly states:

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

Whenever a proposal is being considered which puts any CFC officer in a potential conflict of interest he shall declare the conflict and abstain from discussion, voting or other involvement in the matter.

Using the dictionary definition, the " potential conflict of interest " is based on " financial interest ".

If a CFC officer on a Bid Organizing Committee is not necessarily in a conflict of interest positon, then neither is an ordinary governor.

Bob

[Fred Harvey]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

This whole discussion is another example of the CFC's ability to count the angels on the head of a pin, and totally confuse the issue.

"Conflict of interest" in the usual sense refers specifically to direct potential financial benefit only. It also refers to the "appearance" of a conflict, as pointed out by one sane voice on here.

If people feel that executives or governers are going to driectly benefit financially from any of the bids, then there is a case. Any other "conflict" is only in the minds of whoever is arguing, and has no legal status whatsoever. It will then be up to the CFC to decide as to whether the actions were appropriate.

Normally, the chair will not vote on an issue, other than casting a deciding vote. Really quite simple, and doesn't need constitutions to resolve. For God's sake, you have what, a thousand adult members? Sort it out amongst yourselves, you're a small club!

Seems to me that if someone works for a bid, they have every right to support it....sort of like voting for yourself in an election......

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

... I think the problem here is that it is impossible to define how close to an organizing committee for a bid, a governor must be, to have to declare a conflict of interest. ...

No doubt there will be some gray situations but, with common sense and the guideline noted by Ken MacDonald in another post in this thread, there should be no impossible-to-solve problem here.

... If a governor is on an organizing committee, then he may have a conflict of interest if he gets any pecuniary or equivalent benefit from the bidders being awarded the tournament ( or are you saying he has to declare a conflict just because he is solely on the organizing committee? ). ...

In my view this is the trivial case. If a governor, compensated or otherwise, sits on the organizing committee of a bidder then this is an absolutely clear case of conflict of interest. How can someone who occupies a position on the organizing committee for Bidder A make a credible claim that he can act impartially with respect to bids from Bidders B, C and D vis-a-vis the bid from his own organization?

... But if the governor is only " helping " or " supporting ", then is he in conflict? Roger seems to say that's impossible. ...

If by helping/supporting you mean, for example, that a governor does NOT sit on the bidder's organizing committee but has volunteered to help out with some of the grunt work (tables, chairs, clean up, etc.), then in my view this governor does not have a conflict of interest. The word 'impossible' is being tossed about too much.

... Does this then mean that no bidder can speak to any governor without that governor becoming tainted ...

Of course not. Lobbying is fair game (note that by 'lobbying' I do NOT mean vote rigging). Again, common sense should apply. This isn't hard.

[Bob Armstrong]

When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Hi Peter:

I think the problem here is that it is impossible to define how close to an organizing committee for a bid, a governor must be, to have to declare a conflict of interest. If a governor is on an organizing committee, then he may have a conflict of interest if he gets any pecuniary or equivalent benefit from the bidders being awarded the tournament ( or are you saying he has to declare a conflict just because he is solely on the organizing committee? ).

But if the governor is only " helping " or " supporting ", then is he in conflict? Roger seems to say that's impossible.

Does this then mean that no bidder can speak to any governor without that governor becoming tainted ( it may give the " appearance " of support ), and the bidders being then deprived of that vote, because that governor would have to declare a " conflict of interest " and not vote? I think this is what Roger is getting at when he refers to bidders being deprived of governors' votes.

I think we have to let governors help and suppport bidders, and even be on the organizing committees. The issue is whether they get any pecuniary or equivalent benefit by voting for their own team, and it winning.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Conflict of Interest....

Hear, hear !! :)

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Vote or No Vote for the Chair?

I don't see what the issue is. So someone may have been associated with a bid and voted for it. So what? ...

Roger, please consider this hypothetical situation: if you and some friends worked hard to put together a worthy bid (i.e. worthy of fair consideration) to host the CYCC in Victoria, and if your bid was subsequently turned down by the CFC after being defeated by the narrowest of margins by a competing bid, and if you then found out that 2 or more of the people who used their votes to scuttle your bid were closely associated with the competing bid (for example, part of the competitor's organizing committee), would you not at the very least feel that you'd been treated unfairly? Shouldn't any party who bids for the right to host an event tendered by the CFC be entitled to the minimum expectation that the CFC will make its decision in a fair and impartial manner? You really don't see what the issue is? "So what?" ??? An allegation has been made which casts a shadow on the integrity of the CFC. If the allegation is not true, then the CFC should publicly say so. If there is truth to the allegation, then the CFC needs to do something, quickly, to put the matter right.

And as has been noted, penalizing bidders who associate with one of the governers (any of the 60!) by depriving them of that vote does note seem productive.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. It doesn't seem to be in response to anything I wrote.

[Ken MacDonald]

Conflict of Interest....

I am not making any comment on this issue because I do not know enough about it, BUT, it has long been accepted that not only should there be no "conflict of interest" but there should also not even be "An Appearance of Conflict of Interest."

[Fred McKim]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

The CFC Handbook deals with conflict of interest only when it comes to the Board of Directors.

We have had several cases this year where Executive members have abstained on Executive votes because of conflict of interest.

I think all Governors can vote for tournament bids (including their own) and elections (for themselves). Conflict of interest would occur if they were to receive financial compensation for being a TD, for example.

[Bob Armstrong]

CFC Officer Conflict of Interest in 2011 CYCC Bid Vote

Hi Peter:

You and Gary are raising legitimate questions.

I trust that in the first place, it is for the Executive to answer you, and not that of an ordinary governor, who will just be giving his own best personal opinion.

Bob

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Vote or No Vote for the Chair?

Gary, you're absolutely right to be concerned about this alleged conflict of interest. Given past CFC history, I don't think you'll get very far with your questions though. The people you're talking to you either don't get it, or they're determined to pretend they don't get it.

Let's get serious, folks. Does the CFC handbook really have to cover all possible conflict of interest situations (impossible, of course) in order for the governors and executives to be able to identify an obvious conflict of interest situation and act ethically. Does the CFC handbook have to have rules covering all possible unethical &/or illegal behaviours in order for the organization to behave ethically and legally? If the handbook doesn't mention embezzlement, is it OK for the Treasurer to siphon off some CFC cash for his own use?

It has been alleged that one or more persons who had a conflict of interest relative to the winning CYCC bid skewed the vote results by not declaring their conflict(s) of interest and abstaining from voting. Is this allegation true or not true? Is the CFC doing anything about this other than humming and hawing about the handbook and RRO?

I don't see what the issue is. So someone may have been associated with a bid and voted for it. So what?

And as has been noted, penalizing bidders who associate with one of the governers (any of the 60!) by depriving them of that vote does note seem productive.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Vote or No Vote for the Chair?

Let's keep it simple. Did any of the officers, either positions as listed in the bylaws or listed on the CFC web site as officers or other officers (they are all officers) have an interest in any of the bids and vote on the bids or discuss the bids? ...

Gary, you're absolutely right to be concerned about this alleged conflict of interest. Given past CFC history, I don't think you'll get very far with your questions though. The people you're talking to you either don't get it, or they're determined to pretend they don't get it.

Let's get serious, folks. Does the CFC handbook really have to cover all possible conflict of interest situations (impossible, of course) in order for the governors and executives to be able to identify an obvious conflict of interest situation and act ethically. Does the CFC handbook have to have rules covering all possible unethical &/or illegal behaviours in order for the organization to behave ethically and legally? If the handbook doesn't mention embezzlement, is it OK for the Treasurer to siphon off some CFC cash for his own use?

It has been alleged that one or more persons who had a conflict of interest relative to the winning CYCC bid skewed the vote results by not declaring their conflict(s) of interest and abstaining from voting. Is this allegation true or not true? Is the CFC doing anything about this other than humming and hawing about the handbook and RRO?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Vote or No Vote for the Chair?

I was reviewing a number of RRO interpretation and FAQ sites yesterday.

First off, it is clear that organizations can adopt their own variations on these rules.

Secondly, it is also clear the handbook needs to be updated to account for all circumstances.

Let's keep it simple. Did any of the officers, either positions as listed in the bylaws or listed on the CFC web site as officers or other officers (they are all officers) have an interest in any of the bids and vote on the bids or discuss the bids?

A conditional bid is a bid.