Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

By the way Vlad, I now expect your full support regarding you-know-who (who refuses to play with me). :)

He didn't make a proper 10.2 claim, and I had a K+R+P vs K+R. He offered a draw with seconds left, I declined, and he went on to drop his rook in his anger.

As a non-CFC Governor, I also propose that the governors vote to amend the CFC rules to disregard 10.2. I think it causes more problems than it solves. If players want to play sudden death time controls, then they risk being run out of time. Let's just go back to the 3 legitimate ways to force a draw.


Denton

the problem with your proposal is that it ignores the reason why 10.2 exists. In sudden death, people can play on to win on time in stupidly drawn positions.

It's not that the chess world is unaware of the issues surrounding 10.2, it's that a rule like that is needed.

But really, this whole thread is an anachronism, much like debating whether a vizer is a stronger piece than an elephant in old (obsolete) versions of chess. In this day and age, use a digital clock with an increment or delay and 10.2 does not apply and is not needed. Period.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

So who do you think should resign due to good sportsmanship? The guy with the lost position or the guy who realizes he doesn't have enough time to make his moves?

Well technically the position (ignoring the question of the fallen flag) is not a loss as black draws easily with one of several different strategies consisting of bringing the king up and picking off one pawn and then bringing the king back to take care of another pawn and letting the bishop take care of the straggler. Another strategy is to go for a zugzwang where eventually white has to pitch a pawn and then the draw is easy. My initial pessimism was the result not thinking things through. I should have realized that the bishop covers a lot of ground after having an endgame where I was down four pawns for a bishop and still managed to win. Of course in that instance there was other material still available.

You assume everyone agrees with you on what the sportsmanlike thing to do is and that time management is a mere formality not to be taken seriously

In that latter case we could all just play without clocks. It would be the sportsmanlike thing to do.

[Dale Hoshizaki]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I'm going to state something that some of us are thinking. This situation is ridiculous. You play a "friendly" rated game in your house with no arbitrer present and then decide to claim a win due to a technicality. It would not surprise me if your opponent "messed up" because they weren't expecting such a formal application of the rules in such an informal setting.

By the "rules", you apparently "won". I would ask you this. How confortable would you be presenting this situation to the kids you teach and explaining to them the reason you claimed a victory ? Might be a good way to make them think twice about chess longer term. Even more to the point, imagine if one of your younger students was your opponent.

Agree with Duncan in this case. Though losing a K+R vs K+R endgame in an active chess event many years ago may have coloured my judgement! I had about 90 seconds left, opponent ( a master) had 3 minutes, we played about 50 moves (neither keeping score) I called the arbiter over, and he was not very experienced said we had to play on, played another 50 moves, asked if I could claim a draw as opponent was not trying to win and we had played 100 moves, was told because I didn't have a valid score sheet couldn't claim, so i just let my clock run out rather than continue the farce...Though the arbiter's decision was wrong, and it was just an active event, the lack of sportsmanship on the part of my opponent definitely soured me on chess and was one of the considerations which led me take my current long (>10 years) hiatus from tournament chess.

We need more sportsmanship generally in chess! I say this without knowing anyone involved in this case and without wishing to offend anyone or imply that anyone is not fair. It is an interesting theoretical discussion and the rules do need to be clarified, for sure, but personally i would not take a win in such a position as it just isn't worth it to me....

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I'm going to state something that some of us are thinking. This situation is ridiculous. You play a "friendly" rated game in your house with no arbitrer present and then decide to claim a win due to a technicality.

It was in his house actually and we play lots of games in each others' houses. I did not claim a win by a technicality, he tried to claim a draw by a technicality.

We played another game today at my house where I went up half an hour on the clock at one point but after he sacrificed an exchange it got really scary for a while with two knights dancing around among my shattered pawns. I used a lot of time to avoid stepping on the landmines and all of a sudden we had a situation where I had about three and a half minutes to his one and a half minutes. I was still the exchange up and had a couple of pawns on a6 and f3. I could have won his bishop by advancing the a pawn but then aware of the 10.2 implications I avoided simplifications. With a handful of seconds left on his clock and about nineteen seconds left on mine I did blunder a piece but the final position should still have been a win.

It would not surprise me if your opponent "messed up" because they weren't expecting such a formal application of the rules in such an informal setting.

Actually the setting is quite formal and appropriate for the high level of chess being played. Dining room table under a chandelier at my house and on a nice wooden table recently acquired for $20 on kijiji.com at his house.

By the "rules", you apparently "won". I would ask you this. How confortable would you be presenting this situation to the kids you teach and explaining to them the reason you claimed a victory ?

Extremely comfortable as is my opponent. I am curious as to why you think that it is inappropriate to enforce the rules in a CFC rated game. If we didn't enforce the rules then we could be accused of colluding to fix a game, sandbagging our ratings and a whole other host of crimes against chess. The only rule that we don't tend to enforce is the ringing cell phone rule though it has happened in three games in the last week so maybe we need to talk about it.

Might be a good way to make them think twice about chess longer term. Even more to the point, imagine if one of your younger students was your opponent.

My younger students move much more quickly than I do so they wouldn't have got into time trouble. The rules are enforced in all formal games so that they know how to play properly when they get outside of the confines of the city. We really don't coddle them. Its a cruel world out there and we let them know it.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Agree with Duncan in this case.

You are entitled to your opinion but it will not sway my cold dark heart from my ill gotten rating gain.

Though losing a K+R vs K+R endgame in an active chess event many years ago may have coloured my judgement! I had about 90 seconds left, opponent ( a master) had 3 minutes, we played about 50 moves (neither keeping score) I called the arbiter over, and he was not very experienced said we had to play on, played another 50 moves, asked if I could claim a draw as opponent was not trying to win and we had played 100 moves, was told because I didn't have a valid score sheet couldn't claim, so i just let my clock run out rather than continue the farce...

You could have made a check on a piece of paper or a scoresheet to prove the 50 moves. In a sudden death time control I don't think you have to keep score in the last five minutes at least that's how its played in every sudden death tournament that I have participated in.

You also made a mistake in asking if you could claim a draw. You should have claimed a draw.

Though the arbiter's decision was wrong, and it was just an active event, the lack of sportsmanship on the part of my opponent definitely soured me on chess and was one of the considerations which led me take my current long (>10 years) hiatus from tournament chess.

We need more sportsmanship generally in chess! I say this without knowing anyone involved in this case and without wishing to offend anyone or imply that anyone is not fair.

Oh don't worry. Us sociopaths are not easily offended. ;)

It is an interesting theoretical discussion and the rules do need to be clarified, for sure, but personally i would not take a win in such a position as it just isn't worth it to me....

Its worth $40 to me if I can get my rating over 2200 again by October 1st (well actually September 28th). I have about 20 more games to do it at the rate we are going.

[Dale Hoshizaki]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Hi Vlad,

Just to clarify my previous post, I did claim a draw and did try to point out that I had kept track of the number of moves, though not the actual moves themselves...but was told I needed a scoresheet with the actual moves recorded. I had stopped recording with 5 minutes left, as most do...and did not have the time to write fifty moves down in the time left...like i said an inexperienced arbiter...so I didn't blame him...but was more angry at the opponent for winning in that manner...

I just think it leads to bad feelings sometimes when rules override what is kind of common sense...

I understand the rating point argument, but if your strength is that of a master, which I'm sure it is, your rating will reflect that shortly as you're a very active player it sounds like, regardless of the outcome of one game/losing half a point.

Anyway, if your opponent has no hard feelings, then I guess it's fine either way. I just think it would be bad to lose a friend or make an enemy because of something like this...

Dale

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Extremely comfortable as is my opponent. I am curious as to why you think that it is inappropriate to enforce the rules in a CFC rated game. If we didn't enforce the rules then we could be accused of colluding to fix a game, sandbagging our ratings and a whole other host of crimes against chess. The only rule that we don't tend to enforce is the ringing cell phone rule though it has happened in three games in the last week so maybe we need to talk about it.

My younger students move much more quickly than I do so they wouldn't have got into time trouble. The rules are enforced in all formal games so that they know how to play properly when they get outside of the confines of the city. We really don't coddle them. Its a cruel world out there and we let them know it.

Look, I've been to youth events at EVERY level. Sometimes events go very well, other times there is a lack of good sportsmanship and occasionally outright cheating. I believe when players of all ages are constantly pushing for an edge outside of just playing the game, they are teaching the WRONG message to young people. The cheating and bad sportsmanship is just an extra step that the few who cannot control themselves in that ultra-competitive environment take. Once the trend is set things can snowball until a legitimate crisis reminds everyone to reign it in.

In the end people will evaluate chess opportunities for what they are and participation levels will reflect on that reality. We all have our own personal criteria. I personally prefer the atmosphere at Curling clubs, and feel fortunate that my interest is in that area. I also coach youth soccer and the atmosphere can be very similar to chess. Sometimes its great and other times you feel like quitting. The great keeps you coming back but the other things its hard to look away sometimes. Occasionally, if you promote fair play you just get run over by someone who doesn't care they just want to win.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I personally prefer the atmosphere at Curling clubs, and feel fortunate that my interest is in that area.

Why do you spend so much time with the chess community? Do you fit into the chess community better than into the curling community or do you wish to impress us with your wisdom and considerable charm?

Are there "give me's" in curling or do they measure to see who's rock is closest? Do they enforce the rules in curling?

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Agree with Duncan in this case. Though losing a K+R vs K+R endgame in an active chess event many years ago may have coloured my judgement! I had about 90 seconds left, opponent ( a master) had 3 minutes, we played about 50 moves (neither keeping score) I called the arbiter over, and he was not very experienced said we had to play on, played another 50 moves, asked if I could claim a draw as opponent was not trying to win and we had played 100 moves, was told because I didn't have a valid score sheet couldn't claim, so i just let my clock run out rather than continue the farce...Though the arbiter's decision was wrong, and it was just an active event, the lack of sportsmanship on the part of my opponent definitely soured me on chess and was one of the considerations which led me take my current long (>10 years) hiatus from tournament chess.

We need more sportsmanship generally in chess! I say this without knowing anyone involved in this case and without wishing to offend anyone or imply that anyone is not fair. It is an interesting theoretical discussion and the rules do need to be clarified, for sure, but personally i would not take a win in such a position as it just isn't worth it to me....

the scenario you describe has more to do with arbitral incompetence than sportsmanship

[Dale Hoshizaki]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

the scenario you describe has more to do with arbitral incompetence than sportsmanship

well, you're right in a way...but honest to God, what type of person would try to win K+R vs K+R, given that I still had 2 minutes on my clock? Definitely not a Lady Byng candidate, that's for sure...