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I think we are defining the OWS movement differently. You seem to define the OWS movement as only "the one's sleeping out in the parks", whereas I am including all those "academics and media personalities", as well as all the millions of mainstream "armchair supporters" who are cheering from the sidelines and marching on the weekends.
I'm considering the movement to be those at the pointy end of the stick. The ones putting themselves out and creating the movement. You do realize that's how the movement was created? Prior to those people doing what they are doing there was no OWS movement and the academics and media personalities you mention were largely whisteling in the wind. You may have marched in a march Bob and then gone for Chinese food afterwards but I don't consider you central to the movement. Heck, I don't even suppose that you've provided any material comfort to those that are at the pointy end of the stick. Why not? It's interesting to see how those people just become cannon fodder to those who don't leave their armchairs and ivory towers.
I'm not considering it to be those who from the comfort of their armchairs and tenured salaries are deciding what the movement means after others created it. I have yet to see a march involving a million let alone millions. On what basis do you suggest the movement has millions marching in it? Do you have a link to a survey or anything a little more scientific than your supposition?
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 21st November, 2011, 08:27 PM.
On what basis do you suggest the movement has millions marching in it? Do you have a link to a survey or anything a little more scientific than your supposition?
I am glad you asked. According to Wikipedia there are in excess of one million OWS marchers worldwide. Canada is estimated at 16,500 marchers in 33 cities.
It's only going to get bigger.
I am glad you asked. According to Wikipedia there are in excess of one million OWS marchers worldwide. Canada is estimated at 16,500 marchers in 33 cities.
It's only going to get bigger.
That's what I like about you Bob, you only quote the most reliable, could never be exaggerated sources. Maybe you should come back when you have a real source. Also I shouldn't have to tell you but in excess of 1 million is not the same as 'millions'. I also shouldn't need to tell you how low a per centage 16500 is in a country with our population.
I'm not sure from the tenor of your posts, how you view this " Occupy " movement.
Do you see it as inconsequential?
Or is it that you feel its overall support is minimal among the 99%?
You continue to seem to imply you are not impressed.
Bob A
Glad you asked. I see it as anti-capitalist with a detectable Marxist voice. I view it as potentially violent since a survey shows that about third are prepared to use violence. I see it as being poorly thought out in that it is couched in the usual activist think; full of one sided propoganda and exaggerations. I view it as simple minded and reactionary. I see it as the left's answer to the Tea Party. I see it as a continuation of the polarization and irrationality of American politics (with apologies to the 16500 Canadians in 33 cities who think they are American too.) I see it as being exploitive of the drones who are the pointy end of the stick while the celebrity academics and media personalities use them as a soap box to spread their own viewpoints without any real consultation with the ones putting themselves out.
It ignores the injustice of the dollar a day developing world worker and the overpaid celebrity; in fact courts the over paid celebrity to add support to the movement. Roseanne Barr comes to mind; just because she played a working person on tv does not mean she is one or speaks for them. It does so on purpose because a youth movement that attacked overpaid pop musicians and Hollywood actors would not last very long - don't mess with my tunes man.
I think the overall level of support is yet to be seen as it is early days yet. I question whether there have been millions of marchers. It will be interesting to see which group ultimately takes control of the movement. It will also be intersting to see if this gets more people to vote in elections if democracy is the new byword. Hopefully it will.
Inconsequential? Of course not.
And no I'm not impressed but I'm just one person.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 21st November, 2011, 10:34 PM.
That would be approximately .05%. But it's more than you thought it was. Right!
No that's about right, given that there are already about that many committed activists in Canada. 16500 is not alot of people Bob. They get more than that for a Tiger-Cats game here.
Statistically it is slightly more than the combined vote total of 12819 for the Marxist-Leninist and Communist Party of Canada (and you just know some of them are among the marchers) but less than the 18910 voters for the Christian Heritage Party. Although well ahead of the 3800 votes for the Rhinoserous party and way ahead of the 1756 votes for the Marijuana party (and you just know some of them are among the marchers), so well done.
Do you consider any of those parties significant to Canadian politics based on those numbers? Keeping in mind those are proven, verifiable numbers and not estimates.
Here's an interesting article ... Possible another view of what's happening in the real world. I held shares in that company but sold them some time ago. I want to see how the problems resolve before deciding if I want to reinvest.
One thing that the Vancouver Sun article doesn't reveal is that the Supreme Court plaintiff, Catalyst Paper, runs a pulp mill in the District of North Cowichan, near Crofton. A smelly old pulp mill. Its operation would depress residential property values nearby. Ontario boomer retirees can be out golfing on New Year's Day in Arizona or Mexico, too, but staying in Canada has its charms. Charm and value much reduced if the wind is blowing in from that direction.
Not an issue for me, as I live 40-odd miles from the Crofton Mill (as it was / is known), with another pulp mill (sniff sniff, is that you, Mac? No, that's Harmac, the sweet smell of prosperity) in exactly the same direction but only 15 miles away. But I do understand how one person's windfall (smile) could be another's stinkpit.
In Saturday's municipal elections across BC, there was a big turnover, including a new Mayor, in the District of North Cowichan. Whether that translates into joy for the shareholders of Catalyst Paper, I don't know. The article reporting the results did not mention the Catalyst case as an issue. I did read that in 2010, the Crofton mill got a $6.12 million experimental biogas facility, for which Catalyst put up $1.12 million of their own money. Much of the rest came from taxpayers. There would be environmental gains by turning pulping waste into biogas (thus not having to dispose of that waste) and monetary gains by replacing Natural Gas used in the pulp mill process with that same biogas.
Banks and companies getting taxpayer monies, that's very much on-topic for this thread, eh?
Banks and companies getting taxpayer monies, that's very much on-topic for this thread, eh?
Banks and companies also pay taxes and so do their shareholders when they receive dividends or sell shares at a capital gain. A company like RIM did not just spring up without favourable R&D tax treatment.
I'm more concerned with my tax dollars going to the goverment to play superpower in Afghanistan or Libya or to pay the civil service for whatever it is they do. Bearing in mind that I was a municipal civil servant and was not impressed by the civil service from the inside.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 21st November, 2011, 11:05 PM.
In Saturday's municipal elections across BC, there was a big turnover, including a new Mayor, in the District of North Cowichan. Whether that translates into joy for the shareholders of Catalyst Paper, I don't know. The article reporting the results did not mention the Catalyst case as an issue. I did read that in 2010, the Crofton mill got a $6.12 million experimental biogas facility, for which Catalyst put up $1.12 million of their own money. Much of the rest came from taxpayers. There would be environmental gains by turning pulping waste into biogas (thus not having to dispose of that waste) and monetary gains by replacing Natural Gas used in the pulp mill process with that same biogas.
Banks and companies getting taxpayer monies, that's very much on-topic for this thread, eh?
The shares of the company are trading at around 5 cents a share. I did myself a favour by unloading my shares.
The problems, as I see it, are not only the taxation. It's also the labour cost and the size of the debt which is high. It's a company I've been playing back and forth for a few years but I don't like it's chances now. The biggest asset looks to me to be their order book which could probably be filled from mills in other parts of the country.
Electricity from waste is not new. The garbage dump in Pickering has an electricity plant. They run pipes into the garbage heap to capture the gas. The backup is natural gas and the equipment at the bottom of the heap. I used to like to do service calls on very cold days. Nothing stinks very much on a cold winter day. The waste sewage plants also use gas they make. I doubt it has the same amount of BTU's but it works and they back it up with natural gas.
I once took a tour of a paper mill in Newfoundland. Can't recall the smell being that bad. Certainly not like an abbattoir or rendering plant where I also did service work.
Last edited by Gary Ruben; Tuesday, 22nd November, 2011, 12:26 AM.
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