Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

[Bob Armstrong]

Question ( a bit theoretical ):

With the first move 1.e4, does W immediately have a " slight " advantage, which is 0.26 or above in Fritz 13 evaluation ( 0.49 is the exact evaluation by the program, according to my research with the program )?

I have always understood that W had " initiative ", but I always believed that the position was considered equal ( which for Fritz is between -0.25 and 0.25 )?

I understand that this is an " angels on the head of a pin " question, but I do find it interesting, and I think somewhat fundamental to an understanding of chess. Sorry to introduce such an impractical thread, but I didn't know where else to ask the question.

Bob A

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

With the first move 1.e4, does W immediately have a " slight " advantage, which is 0.26 or above in Fritz 13 evaluation

If it is a good first move (d4 or e4), White has plus immediately - he occupied the center, open a way for a bishop. Black still needs to do that ;)
Though it might be not enough for a win.

Did you check what a line Fritz gives? How does it evaluated that position further? (I assume an opening book is OFF)

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Did you check what a line Fritz gives [ BA - for 1.e4 ]? How does it evaluated that position further? (I assume an opening book is OFF)

Hi Egis:

Yes, the opening book is off. I am just using the usual analysis feature in the opening.

For the " perfect " game after 1.e4, Fritz gives ( using depth 20 or more, unless otherwise indicated ):

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Bxd4 8.Qxd4 d6+/= ( 0.64 - depth 20 )

So Fritz says the perfect game after the completion of move 8 is evaluated as +/= ( 0.64 ). It seems to me logic demands that if this is the perfect game, then this is also the evaluation of the initial 1.e4 position : +/= ( 0.64 )!

But I object to Fritz' evaluation!

I have always understood that general historical human opinion was that if Bl played a perfect defence against W's opening initiative, Bl drew! No?? And, by logic, would this not mean that at 1.e4, Bl can be no worse than equal ( which for Fritz 13 is between -0.25 and 0.25 ).

So how then can the evaluation above of 0.64 be right??

Bob

[John Upper]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

So how then can the evaluation above of 0.64 be right??

It isn't right. And that's not surprising. Engine evaluations are ordinal numbers -- all they do is help it rank the variations so it can choose the highest-ranked move.

I think what you are looking for is a cardinal number evaluation: an absolute measure of the advantage/disadvantage for W/B. The only time engines give you that is when they find a forced draw, in which case (by the usual programmers' convention) the ordinal number matches what its cardinal numbers evaluation should be (0.00).

FWIW, at 20 ply, Houdini ranks White's best moves as:

1st : d4
2nd : e4
=3-4: Nc3 and Nf3

[Erwin Casareno]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Hi Egis:

Yes, the opening book is off. I am just using the usual analysis feature in the opening.

For the " perfect " game after 1.e4, Fritz gives ( using depth 20 or more, unless otherwise indicated ):

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Bxd4 8.Qxd4 d6+/= ( 0.64 - depth 20 )

So Fritz says the perfect game after the completion of move 8 is evaluated as +/= ( 0.64 ). It seems to me logic demands that if this is the perfect game, then this is also the evaluation of the initial 1.e4 position : +/= ( 0.64 )!

But I object to Fritz' evaluation!

I have always understood that general historical human opinion was that if Bl played a perfect defence against W's opening initiative, Bl drew! No?? And, by logic, would this not mean that at 1.e4, Bl can be no worse than equal ( which for Fritz 13 is between -0.25 and 0.25 ).

So how then can the evaluation above of 0.64 be right??

Bob

Let me share my opinion based on my teaching kids on chess openings:

It so happen that i seem to agree to this evaluation of Fritz.
White is slightly ahead and has better chances. Why?

In the opening, there are 3 things to consider:

1. material phase
2. spatial phase
3. temporal phase.

After 8 moves,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Bxd4 8.Qxd4 d6+/= ( 0.64 - depth 20 )


1. In the material phase, it is equal.
2. In the spatial phase, almost equal but White has more control of the center.
3. in the temporal phase, there is a one move advantage of White.

white has 3 developed pieces vs the 2 pieces of Black.

Furthermore, it is White to move so another move advantage.

Lastly, there is also f4 which could win another tempo, although Nc6 seems to negate it.

Note also that the Black king is still in the center.

So there is a lot of things to consider.

I hope my opinion is useful.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Hi John:

Thx. It's interesting that Fritz 13 differs from Houdini. It's valuation of the opening moves according to my research is:

1st - 1.e4+/= ( 0.64 - at depth 20 - though I have some argument that the horizon effect makes this wrong, and that in fact the evaluation is 0.49 );
2nd - 1.d4+/= ( 0.29 - Depth 25 );
3rd - 1.Nf3+/= ( 0.26 - Depth 25 );
4th - 1.Nc3= ( 0.06 - Depth 22 )

Is it not the general opinion that the current Houdini is stronger than the current Fritz?

Bob A

There has been a corrective editing based on further research.

[Bob Armstrong]

Houdini's " Perfect Game " After 1.e4?

FWIW, at 20 ply, Houdini ranks White's best moves as:

1st : d4
2nd : e4
=3-4: Nc3 and Nf3

Hi John:

Out of curiosity, since I don't have Houdini, what is Houdini's " perfect game " after 1.d4, which you said was Houdini's statement as to the perfect opening move? [ which differs from that of Fritz 13 that I posted above: its first 8 moves ( effectively playing itself )were :

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Bxd4 8.Qxd4 d6+/= ( 0.64 - depth 20 )]

I am referring to the " public " versions of these programs, since we don't have access to the stronger versions.

Bob

Later editing to make correction

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

So how then can the evaluation above of 0.64 be right??

It isn't correct. It is just a computer evaluation, flawed as they are.

Somebody once explained to me that black has the opening advantage, since white is given the first opportunity to blunder. ;)

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Let me share my opinion based on my teaching kids on chess openings:

It so happen that i seem to agree to this evaluation of Fritz.
White is slightly ahead [ emphasis added ] and has better chances.

Do I understand you to say that you believe W's advantage is as great, or greater than 0.26, just based on the factors you have mentioned?

I see that your identified factors seem to give W some kind of edge. But a " slight " advantage is still very significant. I don't see Bl as being so badly off after move 8 is completed, that he is not somewhere in the range between 0.00 and 0.25 or EQUAL ( in Fritz 13 valuation terms ).

However, it does seem that John Upper, above, says that it is Houdini's positon that Bl is so badly off that W has gained a " slight " advantage ( 0.26 or better ).

So am I all alone in saying that Bl has equality, though admittedly not of the 0.00 kind?

Part of my reasoning is that I have always believed that Bl, with perfect play against 1.e4 ( the best opening move according to Bobby Fischer, though Kramnik seems to disagree ), has at least a draw. Does this not imply backwards that the opening position must be somewhere in the equal range, for the final result to be =??

Bob A

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

The fact is that White wins 54% of the decisive games, so there must be some kind of advantage. Does playing Black create more opportunity for errors preventing the best-play drawn game? Based on visibility of the pieces, Black pieces being harder to see?

Interesting discussion on theories at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-m...ntage_in_chess

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Even trying to be purely objective, like a computer, there can't be just one perfect opening sequence of moves. Many sequences should lead to a draw, with [near]perfect play.

Another consideration is whether one or both sides are content to draw, or at least one side needs to win. If Black needs to win at all costs against 1.e4 then the Najdorf is possibly in order. If a draw will suffice then it may be the Petroff or the Berlin Lopez should be preferred in practice.

[Erwin Casareno]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Do I understand you to say that you believe W's advantage is as great, or greater than 0.26, just based on the factors you have mentioned?

I see that your identified factors seem to give W some kind of edge. But a " slight " advantage is still very significant. I don't see Bl as being so badly off after move 8 is completed, that he is not somewhere in the range between 0.00 and 0.25 or EQUAL ( in Fritz 13 valuation terms ).

However, it does seem that John Upper, above, says that it is Houdini's positon that Bl is so badly off that W has gained a " slight " advantage ( 0.26 or better ).

So am I all alone in saying that Bl has equality, though admittedly not of the 0.00 kind?

Part of my reasoning is that I have always believed that Bl, with perfect play against 1.e4 ( the best opening move according to Bobby Fischer, though Kramnik seems to disagree ), has at least a draw. Does this not imply backwards that the opening position must be somewhere in the equal range, for the final result to be =??

Bob A

Hi Bob,

Do I understand you to say that you believe W's advantage is as great, or greater than 0.26, just based on the factors you have mentioned?

Basaed on Mathematical terminology, using boundary conditions:

-0.25 < 0.00 < +0.25 = ROUGHLY EQUAL
-0.50 < -0.26 ; +0.26 < +0.50 = slight advantage to Black/White
-1.00 < -0.51; + 0.51 < +1.00 = clear advantage to Black/White
-1.49 < -1.01; +1.01 < +1.49 = big advantage to Black/White
< -1.51; >+1.51 = winning advantage to Black/White

For me, White`s advantage in around +0.50 .

I see that your identified factors seem to give W some kind of edge. But a " slight " advantage is still very significant. I don't see Bl as being so badly off after move 8 is completed, that he is not somewhere in the range between 0.00 and 0.25 or EQUAL ( in Fritz 13 valuation terms ).

Black`s position is not so bad after move 8. It is certainly playable. What we are trying to assess is White`s perspective. I believe White`s numerical advantage lies between +0.26 to +0.50.

However, it does seem that John Upper, above, says that it is Houdini's positon that Bl is so badly off that W has gained a " slight " advantage ( 0.26 or better ).

So am I all alone in saying that Bl has equality, though admittedly not of the 0.00 kind?

Part of my reasoning is that I have always believed that Bl, with perfect play against 1.e4 ( the best opening move according to Bobby Fischer, though Kramnik seems to disagree ), has at least a draw. Does this not imply backwards that the opening position must be somewhere in the equal range, for the final result to be =??

In the opening, we know White has the advantage of the first move. It just depends on how White develops-positions his pieces with respect to Black`s set-up. In case of a symmetrical set-up, maybe the real = is attained.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

Eh... sorry Bob, but this is a dumb question. No one's better or worse after THE FIRST MOVE. The line that fritz gave can't be the best since if it is, EVERYONE would play that. You can't listen to what engines say in every single move. They're only good in complicated tactical positions. (Houdini is strangely powerful in positional positions as well) In conclusion, stop relying on fritz, you won't improve your chess that way and your play will become scattered and won't make much sense. I know of many players who only use fritz to improve their chess and while their rating has improved, their understanding has not. For example, what do you think of this opening - 1)e4 b6 2)d4 bb7 3)bd3 nf6 4)nd2 nc6 5)c3 e5 6)d5 Ne7 7)Nf3 Ng6? What are the positional nuances of this line, what's white's plan, what's black's plan, what kind of ideas are possible arising from this line and is it playable? Fritz will not help you in this evaluation.

[Bob Armstrong]

The Role of Computers In Chess

Hi Bindi:

Thanks for taking the time to follow this somewhat esoteric thread, and give an opinion. And thanks for your advice as to how to improve my chess, from what I'm currently engaged in. I agree that computers have their weaknesses. And listening to them is somewhat distracting compared with the human history of chess. So I guess it is like most things - everything in moderation. Human plans and strategies are necessary, not just random " best " moves. But as you say, the computer has no biases ( well, except as have been written in to the programs ), and so they are open to moves humans have consistently rejected out of hand as being outside " tradition ". I think sometimes these " random " moves can be integrated into a long term human strategy - a kind of partnership I guess.

Bob A

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

To answer Bob's initial question, i.e. what should be the valuation of White's edge after 1.e4, there is an old rule of thumb that in open positions a pawn is worth three tempi.

After 1.e4, it is somewhat difficult for Black to force a closed position without White's co-operation. Hence after 1.e4 it is possibly safe to say that White's edge is worth 0.333333..., i.e. the value of a single tempo advantage in an open position.

Regarding whether this suffices to win, the answer is almost certainly not. Most chess theoreticians agree chess should be a draw with even reasonable play, let alone perfect play. I seem to recall GM Mednis opining that it takes one big error, or two medium sized ones, for Black to be losing if White makes no mistakes.

Also, an old book I read once was 'Point Count Chess' (or some similar title) by I. A. Horowitz :). I recall he theorized something like that it takes four uncompensated advantages for one side to be winning. An extra pawn was worth 3 such advantages, with non-material advantages otherwise being worth one advantage each. Hence 4 tempi up in an open position (with no other advantages) would be needed to have a won game. Funnily enough, given exactly four free moves at the start, White can deliver mate: 1.e4, 2.Bc4, 3.Qh5 and 4.Qxf7# is one such possibility :).