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Another point may be worth mentioning: even computer playing programs can have a setting which determines how much they like playing for a win/draw. The extreme is: always be happy with just a win/draw, depending on the number of the setting.
Also, humans can be less extreme in their result preference as well. Quite often we are happy with a draw should it happen, but we don't rule out giving ourselves a practical chance of winning. Hence against 1.e4 a human might play a Petroff if a draw is 100% satisfactory in a tournament/match, but in cases where a win would be nice, but a draw is otherwise okay, a human may prefer an opening with medium 'risk' of losing such as the Caro-Kann.
However, the Caro-Kann might not lead to a draw with the minimum number of moves if White is both stubborn and plays otherwise error-free (perfect?) chess. For that, the Petroff might fit the bill after all, but who knows?
I seem to remember Tal saying that when he wanted a win he played the Caro Kann and when he wanted a draw he played the Sicilian, or something to that effect. It is interesting because most players would tend to think of things as being the other way around.
In terms of opening selection, I find that against weaker players I have to take some risks. I like the Ruy Lopez Berlin variation, but I've found that occasionally I run out of steam against a lower rated player who plays one of the lines that doesn't go into the ending, instead taking on c6 early and keeping queens on. Interestingly, almost nobody I've played OTB will go into the Berlin endgame. I'm not sure why, but I would almost think that I have better winning chances in that variation then the one that I mention above.
It's often OK for higher rated players against lower rated players. It's also OK against players who have some problems playing against that defense for whatever reason. Mostly when playing the Winawer against a higher rated competent opponent who knows what he's doing it turns into a routine loss.
Would you play it against an IM or GM or would you find something else?
Maybe you mean why would I not try to promote the Winawer. The reason is when I watch a Canadian playing a foreign player I like to see the Canadian win. So why not pick something which gives better chances?
The French/Winawer is one of my most frequent choices vs. 1.e4, especially against stronger or approximately equal opposition. Like most sharp openings the French (and the Winawer in particular) is a good way to try to roll the dice when the situation warrants it. That may be a reason why I haven't done as consistently well vs. weaker opposition with this opening. In that situation something safer, or which more often wins quickly, may usually be preferable. The most outstanding result I've had with the Winawer as Black is probably an interesting draw vs. GM Nigel Short, albeit in a simul he gave, where I stood [edit: better] at the end but failed to appreciate it.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Sunday, 12th February, 2012, 10:18 PM.
Reason: Deep analysis with Fritz
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
I seem to remember Tal saying that when he wanted a win he played the Caro Kann and when he wanted a draw he played the Sicilian, or something to that effect. It is interesting because most players would tend to think of things as being the other way around.
In terms of opening selection, I find that against weaker players I have to take some risks. I like the Ruy Lopez Berlin variation, but I've found that occasionally I run out of steam against a lower rated player who plays one of the lines that doesn't go into the ending, instead taking on c6 early and keeping queens on. Interestingly, almost nobody I've played OTB will go into the Berlin endgame. I'm not sure why, but I would almost think that I have better winning chances in that variation then the one that I mention above.
Andersson playing the Caro-Kann was once referred to as 'Ulf in sheep's clothing' :D. Perhaps Tal was thinking of the fact that White might resort to, say, the Moscow Variation, or maybe the c3-Sicilian, if he indeed preferred the Caro-Kann for winning purposes. Korchnoi once opined that the French had just as many winning chances as the Sicilian, though opening theory has changed a lot since then...
Regarding the Berlin Lopez, it's pretty tough not to cough up the occasional full-(let alone half-)point vs. weaker players, regardless of the opening. The cost to one's rating can be quite steep if one loses though. On the whole it's a smart policy to try to beat weaker players with superior technique, and the Berlin Lopez doesn't seem too bad at all for that purpose.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Sunday, 12th February, 2012, 08:09 PM.
Reason: Spelling
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
When you're the white side of the Winawer, are you usually winning the games or losing?
Thinking back, did you play the Winawer against Short because you expected to beat him with it or hoped to draw? That can sometimes effect an evaluation when deciding on a draw offer.
The most outstanding result I've had with the Winawer as Black is probably an interesting draw vs. GM Nigel Short, albeit in a simul he gave, where I stood [edit: better] at the end but failed to appreciate it.
Here's the game:
N.Short (2680)-K.Pacey (2180)
Nigel Short Simul (Ottawa), 18 Nov 2010
French Winawer C18
In this, the final position, Black should repeat moves to get the position after White's 39th with 40...Kc6 41.Rf6, and then play ...Kc7! (instead of ...Kd7), after which analysis with Fritz indicated to me that Black is much better.
[edit: to answer your latest post Gary, I had been willing to repeat moves right in the opening, to take a highly honourable quick exit to the bar. :) Regarding my history as White vs. the Winawer, it's been mixed too, as I think a look at a mega-database that has many of my older games should reveal]
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 09:39 AM.
Reason: Adding diagrams
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
The reason I asked about your results with white against the Winawer is because often players do poorly against defences they like to play. It's kind of a psychological thingie.
The reason I asked about your results with white against the Winawer is because often players do poorly against defences they like to play. It's kind of a psychological thingie.
I highly enjoy playing both sides of the Winawer. To a fault, in that I often don't care as much about the result as how interesting the game gets. Against Nigel I played the opening somewhat poorly in my opinion, but an interesting middlegame resulted.
As White, I have a considerable plus score, as would be the case for most openings. However the average rating of my opponents in any given opening is also often lower than mine, and my performance rating against the Winawer is another story...however one time I did risk 4.Qg4 against a much lower rated oppenent, and the ensuing loss skewed my perforformance rating against the Winawer a little, in that that's the only game I ever dared to play 4.Qg4 with White so far. :(
I've dabbled more with 4.a3 against weaker players, and it's usually paid off, but I've been normally loyal to the main move 4.e5 with White.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
To show I'm sporting :D, I'll provide chesstalk viewers with a couple of my White wins against the Winawer. However, note that, like in the Short-Pacey game above, all three results were quite possible at some point after the opening phase of each game. The first is an older game I've given a link for, from the RA club website, where my notes to the game are also provided:
Well Bob, I'd thought we might have adequately explored all the issues concerning your initial query, but if you've got any fresh thoughts, let us know :D.
How do you, or your Fritz13 (with opening book on or off), feel about what is the evaluation of, or White's best play against, the Winawer?
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
Gary has so discouraged me, I don't even like to hear the word " Winawer ".
And no new thoughts on 1.e4 - but I'd really like someone who know someone who has access to the world's strongest computer, to ask them to run the strongest chess program, playing itself, from the position 1.e4 ( once they do that, then maybe they'd be interested in the other 19 start positions??!!! LOL ).
Bob
P.S. Then it would be nice if they were " cooperative ", as promoted by the Cooperative Chess Coalition, and let us know too what the game score is!
Gary has so discouraged me, I don't even like to hear the word " Winawer ".
So many players use it that I think it must be an easy defense to teach a student. A catch all against 1. e4.
The only player I can recall who won a world championship match while using the Winawer was Euwe. He played it 4 times and scores a whole half point from the 4 games. Alekhine laughed so much he lost the match. In the rematch Euwe didn't play the Winawer and lost the match. Hard to figure. :)
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