Playing Up at the CYCC - CFC Policy Statement

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Evaluation of Current CYCC Playing Up Policy of CFC

No, I don't like a policy which allows juniors to play up several groups and have to compete at the world juniors at that level. I don't see skipping steps as a way to develop talent. No player should be too big to play at their age level.

Life is short, and few get to the very top. Champions all over the world are glad that they, their parents, their coaches and their trainers fought for the player to be challenged at his or her skill level. There are only a few years to get in the 10,000 hours of punishing challenging practice, and champions tend to ignore (or cajole or chafe at ...), when possible, those who would not let them "skip steps". Kasparov, Yanofsky, Karjakin, Magnus, Judit, Hou Yifan ... may have played in the odd youth event, but they didn't let the youth chess ladder constrain their chess development.

That said, the number of players who should consider playing older, for competitive reasons, is tiny. In Canada, Alexandre Le Siège played in three Cadet (U16) championships over five years, winning every time he played. Had it been a multi-group event, he might have played older on any of those occasions. I won't say those are the only ones, but the number is not huge.

I'm glad you've make clear what it is we were disagreeing about, this time, Gary.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Playing Up at the CYCC - CFC Policy Statement

Can I use WYCC?
The regs for WYCC'11:
http://wycc2011.com/en/regulations/tecreg.html

No limitations from a younger side.

I think this prohibited by Rating rules after Ivanov's (?) participation in CO and CC at the time.

Always question the ruling of a Soviet arbiter, and never follow the example of FIDE, those have been my two guiding principles in life, LOL. I'm glad that you presented this better analogy, Egis. However, there are two immediate differences.

First, at the WYCC, the entry is made by the national chess federation, the CFC. At the CYCC, the entry is made by the parent. I'll let you think about that. I like parents. Parents are best not allowed in the CYCC playing room because soon they start accusing each other of cheating. There is fierce protectiveness in a parent, and also a level of unpredictability.

Second, each WYCC section is huge and has players from a variety of countries with a variety of skill levels. In a large group, the Swiss system deals with a skill level gradient. Because so many players are unrated or inaccurately rated, the infamous yo-yo effect is not such a problem at the WYCC. But in the CYCC, some sections are small and their results can be greatly influenced by the inclusion of an uncompetitive player. Winning the section--at the CYCC--has decisive monetary consequences. It is a delicate situation.

Above, I argued for allowing CYCC participants, under some circumstances, to play older. But it looked like there were problems coming up with clear, simple rules that would not interfere with the smooth running of the CYCC. They were in danger of seeing the baby away with the bath water. So I suggested that nothing prevented the CFC from keeping the way the tournament ran, unquestioned and very successfully, up to 2007 and perhaps beyond. It's not a big deal. If we have a 12-year-old Magnus Carlsen, he might ignore the CYCC WYCC thing and compete in the Quebec Open, his provincial Closed, the Reykjavik Open, the Aeroflot Open, some "young masters" RR in Ukraina, whatever. Or even choose to play in his youngest appropriate age group, as Gary Ruben suggests.

From the interest shown, Pavlovians baying at the door if you like, CFC might have to change some terminology to restore a state of repose.

Simultaneous rated play. Yes, I remember the Igor Ivanov simul championships (did Brian Hartman do the same thing, or was he the co-winner?), from Edmonton. In CFC Handbook section 711, we have: "During a rated event, no player is allowed to be in competition with more than 1 opponent, including opponents in other events. [CFC Executive motion carried, 2001-02]". Whew. Though some may fear a lawsuit in view of preventing the player from competing for all the titles for which she was eligible.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Evaluation of Current CYCC Playing Up Policy of CFC

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[Victor Itkine]

Re: Playing Up at the CYCC - CFC Policy Statement

Thanks to Bob Armstrong for bringing in this interesting discussion.

I was following this thread from the very beginning and initially did not want to participate in the chat. It is really difficult to judge who is more right here: Ken Craft, Egidijus Zeromskis and Co. saying that “To refuse to allow someone to play in a section for which they are young enough to play in is discriminatory” or Jonathan Berry and Co. saying that “to add an uncompetitive 11-year old to the U18 CYCC not only lessens the collegial and competitive rewards to the 16- and 17- year-olds, it also could influence the results, if one contender is Swiss paired (especially in the last round, of a small group) against the outlier while another is not.”
Both parties have their points in this argument.

However, all of this discussion throughout the entire thread is just theoretical. Like everybody here is discussing the issue of playing up on the Moon. But we are talking particularly about Canadian Youth Chess Championship. All the discussion in this thread ignores the fact that there are new CFC rules enforced for the participation in CYCC since 2011. Qualification is required now. So, all players do not have the right to play at CYCC even in their own age categories; all the participants must first qualify for the CYCC.

When I realized this fact, and realized that this important factor was not a part of the discussion, I decided to make this post and look at the issue from a practical point of view. As per my opinion it will be much easier to find the consensus when moving from theoretical arguing to the practical situation.

There are five ways how the player may qualify for the CYCC according to the existing CFC rules:

1. Via one of the year’s regional or provincial YCCs (major way)

The discussion should be started here. According to Ken Craft (and I agree with him) any player has the right to play at YCC in any category for which he/she is young enough to play. Then we may have following situations:

a) Player has played up and did not qualify; in this case, the player is not eligible to play at CYCC even at his/her age category unless he/she qualifies through other method which will be considered below;

b) Player has played up and qualified. In this case, as per my opinion, this player should have a choice at which category to play at CYCC: at one which he/she was qualified for playing up or at any younger (or girls) category which he/she is eligible for by age/gender. However, if the player will chose to play at CYCC in different category then qualified via YCC, he/she should be not eligible for the YCCs bursary. The bursary should go to the next place winner at the same YCC.

Later on, the same rule should apply for participation at WYCC. According to the existing CFC rules, all CYCC participants are eligible to play at the same year WYCC. That means that any CYCC participant (even if was playing up at CYCC) can chose at which category he/she wants to play at WYCC. However, if the player will chose to play at WYCC in different category then he/she was playing at CYCC, he/she should not be eligible for the CYCC bursary and not eligible to be Canada’s official representative. The bursary should go to the next place winner at CYCC.

2. As the prize winner at the previous year CYCC (WYCC qualifier as per the old rules)

3. As previous (any year) CYCC Champion

4. As selected player by rating: the highest rating of each age category (open and female) of each province, along with the top ten rated players in each age category in the country

For the players qualified to CYCC via way ## 2; 3 or 4 the rules for playing up should be, probably, the same. And here is the real place for discussion. There following options are possible:

a) Not to allow playing up without qualifying via older (open) category at YCCs;

b) Allowing playing up conditionally (for example, if player’s rating is within top 5 or top 10 players of the chosen playing up category);

c) Allowing playing up unconditionally.

As per my personal opinion, the first option is preferable.

5. As been nominated by host Organizer

Taking into account that these players are not qualified through YCCs and are not among the top National or Provincial players, from my point of view, they should not be allowed to play up at CYCC under any circumstances.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Playing Up at the CYCC - CFC Policy Statement

Thanks to Bob Armstrong for bringing in this interesting discussion.

I was following this thread from the very beginning and initially did not want to participate in the chat. It is really difficult to judge who is more right here: Ken Craft, Egidijus Zeromskis and Co. saying that “To refuse to allow someone to play in a section for which they are young enough to play in is discriminatory” or Jonathan Berry and Co. saying that “to add an uncompetitive 11-year old to the U18 CYCC not only lessens the collegial and competitive rewards to the 16- and 17- year-olds, it also could influence the results, if one contender is Swiss paired (especially in the last round, of a small group) against the outlier while another is not.”
Both parties have their points in this argument.

However, all of this discussion throughout the entire thread is just theoretical. Like everybody here is discussing the issue of playing up on the Moon. But we are talking particularly about Canadian Youth Chess Championship. All the discussion in this thread ignores the fact that there are new CFC rules enforced for the participation in CYCC since 2011. Qualification is required now. So, all players do not have the right to play at CYCC even in their own age categories; all the participants must first qualify for the CYCC.

When I realized this fact, and realized that this important factor was not a part of the discussion, I decided to make this post and look at the issue from a practical point of view. As per my opinion it will be much easier to find the consensus when moving from theoretical arguing to the practical situation.

There are five ways how the player may qualify for the CYCC according to the existing CFC rules:

1. Via one of the year’s regional or provincial YCCs (major way)

The discussion should be started here. According to Ken Craft (and I agree with him) any player has the right to play at YCC in any category for which he/she is young enough to play. Then we may have following situations:

a) Player has played up and did not qualify; in this case, the player is not eligible to play at CYCC even at his/her age category unless he/she qualifies through other method which will be considered below;

b) Player has played up and qualified. In this case, as per my opinion, this player should have a choice at which category to play at CYCC: at one which he/she was qualified for playing up or at any younger (or girls) category which he/she is eligible for by age/gender. However, if the player will chose to play at CYCC in different category then qualified via YCC, he/she should be not eligible for the YCCs bursary. The bursary should go to the next place winner at the same YCC.

Later on, the same rule should apply for participation at WYCC. According to the existing CFC rules, all CYCC participants are eligible to play at the same year WYCC. That means that any CYCC participant (even if was playing up at CYCC) can chose at which category he/she wants to play at WYCC. However, if the player will chose to play at WYCC in different category then he/she was playing at CYCC, he/she should not be eligible for the CYCC bursary and not eligible to be Canada’s official representative. The bursary should go to the next place winner at CYCC.

2. As the prize winner at the previous year CYCC (WYCC qualifier as per the old rules)

3. As previous (any year) CYCC Champion

4. As selected player by rating: the highest rating of each age category (open and female) of each province, along with the top ten rated players in each age category in the country

For the players qualified to CYCC via way ## 2; 3 or 4 the rules for playing up should be, probably, the same. And here is the real place for discussion. There following options are possible:

a) Not to allow playing up without qualifying via older (open) category at YCCs;

b) Allowing playing up conditionally (for example, if player’s rating is within top 5 or top 10 players of the chosen playing up category);

c) Allowing playing up unconditionally.

As per my personal opinion, the first option is preferable.

5. As been nominated by host Organizer

Taking into account that these players are not qualified through YCCs and are not among the top National or Provincial players, from my point of view, they should not be allowed to play up at CYCC under any circumstances.

Thanks to Mr. Itkine, who has put our discussions in perspective. In the main, I agree with his conclusions. I would add that for provincial rating representatives from ON, BC, AB, the considerations of playing older are much different than from SK, YT, NT, NU, QC and perhaps other jurisdictions. Some of these have 5 or fewer CFC-rated under-18 players in the entire province. The same player, without being a Wunderkind, may be the highest rated of the province in several age groups. It takes just seconds at the CFC site to choose your favourite province, under-18, and then see a list of the players. I think that the organizers/CFC need to be able to put a provincial rating qualifier from a CFC-sparse province in the most competitive (youngest) section for which that player is eligible. Otherwise, sooner or later, some parent will insist on an entry that creates a 7-player U18 section with one player rated hundreds of points below the others.

Mr. Itkine's suggestions did help me imagine a singing, dancing, costumed Broadway musical on the theme of the CYCC. The smash hit solo would be the song entitled:

I'm the only rated chess player from NU

But I digress.

It is interesting to hear that the practice of the CYCC is become one with the rules of the CYCC in the CFC Handbook. That was not always the case.