CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

[Bob Armstrong]

Posted on the Cooperative Chess Coalition ( CCC ) Facebook chess discussion group, " CCC - Chess Posts of Interest ":

CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

International.

Digital clocks are now slowly becoming the norm, at least in Canada. But many chess players are slow to change over ( should we say too " cheap " to spring for one ? ). Also, increments are now the norm at the FIDE level, and in Canada, at least for top sections, they are now the norm. At recent Canadian Opens they have been the norm, with the organizer providing all the clocks.

A few questions:

1. What do you think of increments? Do you personally like to play under them?
2. Should organizers now begin making digital clocks compulsory when players are asked to provide their own clocks, so that they can have increments in the time control for all sections?

Bob Armstrong, CCC Member

[Roger Patterson]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

First of all, demanding players today bring a digital clock is no different than demanding in days of yore that players bring an (analogue) clock. What makes you think this situation is different?

Secondly, why are you flogging a dead horse? This train left the station over a decade ago.

Thirdly, all the best organizers supply clocks. :-)

[John Brown]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

One way to get more digital clocks in the mix is to have smaller organized tournaments give out digital clocks as part of the prize to winners who do not have one. So if you win a $200 cash prize we give you $120 cash and a digital clock. I think they are still about $80 to buy a good one.

This could also be done at bigger tournaments that do not supply the clocks.

At Niagara Falls we had problems of die hard tournament players not bringing
sets or clocks. They have been programed that all organizers have loads of equipment.

In Ontario we have clocks via the OCA but I really feel that there is not a reliable hot line to contact to get these clocks or equipment and even if we get them where do we return them?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

For the CFC, FIDE's Laws of chess cover the rules of play. As far as FIDE's rules go, there is nothing as yet compelling the use of digital (as opposed to analog) clocks that I have seen. Hence IMHO it would be up to individual Canadian organizers whether to make them compulsory in their own events.

Here's parts of FIDE's section on chess clocks:

COMPETITION RULES

Article 6: The chess clock

6.1
‘Chess clock’ means a clock with two time displays, connected to each other in such a way that only one of them can run at one time.
‘Clock’ in the Laws of Chess, means one of the two time displays.
Each time display has a ‘flag’.
‘Flag fall’ means the expiration of the allotted time for a player.

6.2
a.
When using a chess clock, each player must make a minimum number of moves or all moves in an allotted period of time and/or may be allocated an additional amount of time with each move. All these must be specified in advance.

b.
The time saved by a player during one period is added to his time available for the next period, except in the ‘time delay’ mode.
In the time delay mode both players receive an allotted ‘main thinking time’. Each player also receives a ‘fixed extra time’ with every move. The countdown of the main time only commences after the fixed time has expired. Provided the player stops his clock before the expiration of the fixed time, the main thinking time does not change, irrespective of the proportion of the fixed time used.


I've been in many local tournaments where organizers have rented out chess clocks, i.e. only digital ones for years now. I've for some years always brought my old analog clock (one of two analogs, and zero digitals, I have) in case my opponent didn't have a clock, though in the old days I might have neglected to do this, and I sometimes had to rent a clock. It speaks sadly for chessplayers that my opponents often were reluctant to pay their half of the $2 rental fee.

Nowadays, since I always bring my analog clock, when an opponent arrives without a clock I often have a choice. I can rent a digital clock, or play with my analog clock (my opponents have somehow seldom thought to offer to rent a digital clock before I suggested it).

If I am playing a young opponent (who would have faster reflexes than me in any sudden death time scramble with an analog), in this situation, I will rent a digital clock (assuming increments are in use) sometimes without waiting to ask, even, gladly paying the whole clock rental fee out of my own pocket. If I am playing an older opponent, I will just use an analog clock, unless my opponent suggests renting a digital one (guess how often that happens). Sometimes it seems to pay not to be cheap.

Note that in case of disagreement, the use of a digital clock is given preference, at least in my area of the country.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

In Ontario we have clocks via the OCA but I really feel that there is not a reliable hot line to contact to get these clocks or equipment and even if we get them where do we return them?

I suggested a few years ago that the OCA start charging (small) rental fees on their equipment. It was already starting to wear out (it's now 7 years old and has been well used) and pieces have gone missing of course.

I'm not sure if that has been continued once I was off the Exec, but they definitely need a plan in place to buy a small amount of equipment each year to replace what is lost and retired.

Patrick was always the point man for the equipment in the past; I'm not sure if he still fills that role.

[John Brown]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

Hi Chris;

I've been talking to a few players and we agree with you that there should be one person looking after the sets and clocks and that they should be updated.
We feel that the person should get some compensation from the OCA to maintain this. We also feel that if the OCA had a go to guy then all Ontario Organizers could take advantage of the sets & clocks . If the distance is too far to drive to get sets then they could be sent by courier and the organizers could include those charges into the tournament expenses.

What would the OCA feel about using the sets and clocks as intended?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

Hi Bob A.

I personally am slow to change over to owning digital clock(s), because other players/organizers/clubs generally provide them in my area or I can rent one at a tournament if I want/have to. At just a $2 rental fee for digital clocks at Ottawa EOCA events, and the relatively few times I have wanted/needed to rent one, and the fact that I seldom play outside of club/tournament chess, I ask myself why should I pay to own one? I also want to get more use out of my old analog clocks, perhaps not getting a digital one until my old analogs wear out.

There are also issues with digital clocks. Buttons sometimes don't respond properly when pressed on poorer/worn digital clocks, and batteries die. Then there is the hassle of learning how to program a digital clock. I basically just know how to reset/pause a digital clock that has already been programmed, unless it has some really user-friendly features (depending on the type).

The main drawback of increments, other than when you face an older opponent (or someone else with slower relexes than you) is that if you get a bad/lost position, even if the opponent is relatively low on time currently showing on his clock, with increments often you may as well resign, whereas in a good old-fashioned sudden death analog time scramble you had more hope AND your opponent would often be punished for mismanaging his clock time. Now that extra element of play, the times on the clocks, arguably means much less. On the other hand, people can see increments as a positive thing because won games are not lost 'unjustly'. Depends on your view of what is sporting (ahem). When I'm winning, I at times enjoy playing with increments. When I stand worse, I don't. :)

I think organizers should nevertheless strive to someday be in a position to ask for players to bring a single type of clock (i.e. it would be digital nowadays), i.e. organizers should do so when they have plenty of clocks to rent, but not quite enough to provide them as equipment for the duration of a tournament to all the players in one (either that, or be in a position to provide them for the duration of a tounament to all players). Otherwise players can occasionally find ourselves deciding whether to punish (or take advantage?) of the cheaper side of human nature, like I alluded to in my previous post in this thread. It's best for all concerned that there be one standard for clocks in a given event.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

Chess Life had an article about analog clocks - it is a relict in the today world. Many companies abolished the analog chess clock market.

If you are so favoring the analog - stock your storage room as tomorrow you could not find them anymore.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

It doesn't surprise me that analog clocks are currently going extinct. On the other hand, there may be a movement at some point in the future to either bring them back, or (if the button defects of digital clocks are ironed out) there may be a movement in future to widely use digital clocks without any increments, i.e. like analog clocks in effect.

In baseball, there was a time when metal bats were briefly allowed, but then home runs shot up and it was back to (strictly regulated) wooden bats. There are some who wish it was similar for tennis rackets being always wood rather than metal. Hockey might have such a debate in future, who knows.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Increments.

A possible argument against widely bringing back non-increment time controls is that if there is no sudden death, it seems there would need to be adjournaments again. This has been afaik deemed unfeasible/unfair in modern times due to computer-aided analysis - though what was fair about adjournment analysis using a team of super-GMs? - or what is fair about computer-aided opening analysis against an opponent known to play a narrow repertoire?

On the other hand, that leaves us only with sudden death non-increment time controls as an option if we discontinue common use of increments, and that seems currently unpopular. However, the percentage of high-level draws might well go down (though also would often go down the quality of play).