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Is this something on which you would wager a token $20.00? The NDP winning the next federal election and forming a government. I figure it won't happen.
No, no Gary, get him to tell us something really important. Like when the Leafs are going to win the cup. :p:p
Long before the NDP form the federal government. As Jerry Pournelle of Chaos Manor and Byte magazine fame used to put it: "Real Soon Now".
You do have to admit that it is kind of cute how Bob A posts that they are 'targeting the 1%/Capitalism symbol' and Bob G posts that really OWS is in favour of Capitalism. I mean if the two Bob's can't even get on the same page as to what the movement wants...
Although it is puzzling how Bob A is completely silent when the matter of the rights of students who want to attend class is brought up.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 10:34 PM.
You've got a $ 20 bet - I'll put my money where my mouth is. Make a note in your diary for 3 years from now!....that you'll owe Bob $ 20!!!
Bob A
This will be the easiest $20. I ever win.
Note that when the Ontario voters saw what happened in the last federal election they made sure it didn't happen in the Ontario election. I consider it a major reason McGunty did so well.
Good luck with your quest to educate yourself about the meaning of political terms. Might I suggest a book on political science, that way you don't have to worry about Wikipedia warning labels. Try this one for example http://www.amazon.com/Politics-For-D...6077222&sr=8-1
I'll keep you advised of the polls as we approach payday, so you can start salting away old non-renewable pennies ( http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local.../?hub=CP24Home )to pay me with, as a protest on the day of reckoning.
Bob
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Friday, 4th May, 2012, 07:00 AM.
I'll keep you advised of the polls as we approach payday, so you can start salting away old non-renewable pennies ( http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local.../?hub=CP24Home )to pay me with, as a protest on the day of reckoning.
Bob
Perfect Gary, for an election result that won't make any cents, you are authorized to pay him in coin of the realm which is equally useless.
It's a wonder that anyone still firmly believes in polls after the polling disaster with Wildrose in Alberta. The pollsters are still trying to explain that one away. Any poll that doesn't include the Greens, who get at least 5% of the popular vote, likely mostly away from the NDP I would think, is not that useful.
I don't know where the ridings to give an NDP government will come from. I doubt they can hold all their Quebec ridings and I don't see much growth there. Not sure how Mulcair is viewed. Sooner or later he'll have to stop riding Jack's coat tails and tell people his vision.
Last federal election Dan McTeague lost his seat for this riding. They guy who beat him was someone whose name I had not previously heard. He was conservative. I never saw anyone canvas for him and there were only a few pieces of literature. It appeared to be a typical low budget campaign usually employed against an incumbent who is a lock to win. Yet the conservative did win.
In the provincial election which followed shortly, and in Ontario it's the same riding boundaries for the provincial and federal elections, there was no incumbent. The liberal incumbent retired. The liberal won the riding easily. The conservative was a more high profile candidate.
You are right that I was somewhat inaccurate. In stating that the Occupy Toronto were targeting a capitalist symbol ( Barrick ), I should have explained that it was, for the majority, for the purpose of achieving a " modified capitalism ", with a more favourable distribution of the wealth being created by the system - stop the 1% plundering. I think this likely puts Bob G and I on the same page - he can advise if we still see it differently.
As to rights of students in Quebec who want to break the picket line, and attend classes.
First of all, the institution has to decide if they are going to honour the strike and cancel classes. I understand some teachers were no longer teaching their classes, in sympathy with the strike. It is up to the institution to intervene here, if it has adopted a policy of not honouring the strike, and that classes must go ahead. But should the institution decide not to teach classes, lots of nice legal issues arise - can the government claw back funding? Can the students who want to attend, sue the institution? etc..
Secondly, I do support the right of students to attend classes, where they are being held under the auspices of the institution, which has a policy of not honouring the strike. I also do support the right of the striking students to delay the crossing of the picket line by non-striking students, to inform them of the issues for a short length of time, as is allowed in any labour picket line. But the students who want to cross should be able to, and they should not suffer assaults, unless of their own making, by refusing to be delayed, and trying to push through.
Labour rights are complicated, and in practice, are affected by high emotions. It is always a difficult situation at ground zero.
Bob
Last edited by Bob Armstrong; Friday, 4th May, 2012, 12:55 PM.
hmmm - I wonder if I'm being excessively influenced by living in NDP Craig Scott's riding of Toronto-Danforth ( formerly held by Jack Layton )??
But no, no - I can't get wobbly at this point already!
Surely my bet is a sound one - look at the recent poll ( and we all know how accurate polls are! ).
Bob
I thought you had committed to the small wager. The only poll which will count will be the election results and if the NDP can form a government.
Look at the ridings around GM. Broadbent used to hold one for the NDP. It's not NDP these days and hasn't been for some time. Probably the average family income is high in that part of the province and they don't want higher taxes.
Here's an interesting article from the Toronto Star.
You are right that I was somewhat inaccurate. In stating that the Occupy Toronto were targeting a capitalist symbol ( Barrick ), I should have explained that it was, for the majority, for the purpose of achieving a " modified capitalism ", with a more favourable distribution of the wealth being created by the system - stop the 1% plundering. I think this likely puts Bob G and I on the same page - he can advise if we still see it differently.
As to rights of students in Quebec who want to break the picket line, and attend classes.
First of all, the institution has to decide if they are going to honour the strike and cancel classes. I understand some teachers were no longer teaching their classes, in sympathy with the strike. It is up to the institution to intervene here, if it has adopted a policy of not honouring the strike, and that classes must go ahead. But should the institution decide not to teach classes, lots of nice legal issues arise - can the government claw back funding? Can the students who want to attend, sue the institution? etc..
Secondly, I do support the right of students to attend classes, where they are being held under the auspices of the institution, which has a policy of not honouring the strike. I also do support the right of the striking students to delay the crossing of the picket line by non-striking students, to inform them of the issues for a short length of time, as is allowed in any labour picket line. But the students who want to cross should be able to, and they should not suffer assaults, unless of their own making, by refusing to be delayed, and trying to push through.
Labour rights are complicated, and in practice, are affected by high emotions. It is always a difficult situation at ground zero.
Bob
Firstly this is not a union strike. As much as the student groups call themselves a union they are not one. For example, there is no collective agreement between the students and the universities. As such there is no picket line. There is also no 'strike pay' for students. In other words they are on their own dime if they end up losing the school term. This is not a labour issue. There were no labour negotiations, there was no legal strike process. I assume as a retired lawyer you have some idea of the process that is required before even an actual union with an expired collective agreement has to go through to declare a strike. Let me remind you that one of those things is a strike vote. I've been involved in both sides of the table in these types of negotiations as a union executive so I do actually know how it works. I wouldn't even dignify this boycott of classes by students with the term wildcat strike.
Students are not labour to the university in their capacity as students. The universities have collective agreements with their staff unions and with a select group of students who are TA's but not with the student body at large. As well none of these groups have even sorted out which of them actually speaks for which students. So although I know you are getting excited about winning $20 in pennies from Gary following an NDP win, please try to remember this is not a labour strike. There is no legitimacy to couching your language in union terms like a good NDP supporter. There is no legal picket line. There is no collective agreement being negotiated and there are no benefits being offered the students by their 'union' in compensation to assist them in dealing with the financial implications of this, normally funded from their own payments. There is no right to block students that want to go to class. They have a constitutional right to attend classes. They also have a right not to be attacked for expressing their own opinion. Not to mention that they have paid to attend classes and have in fact voted to attend classes. If the Ryerson Students Union told me not to attend classes at Ryerson for some reason I would tell them to take a hike. That is far outside their mandate. They collect my money to offer certain services which I appreciate and with legitimate input from students they advocate for certain things for us - such as yes lower tuition, they don't have the power to call me out on strike. Likley under their collective agreements for professors and staff there is no right for professors to go out in sympathy with a student walkout. It's lovely that you couch this in union language and terms as any good NDP supporter would since they see the world as labour vs management no matter the issue or the legalities.
As with Bob G you don't speak for the OWS movement. When they say they are targetting symbols of Capitalism it means they are against Capitalism. Pure and simple. There are plenty of media sources other than you and Bob G that I can readily rely on to know what is going on. I'm also not really sure they would appreciate you twisting around that meaning. If I was to go down to the OWS park to ask them about your version they would first ask me to leave their tent as the tents and the park are only for the OWS and their supporters and secondly they would say Bob Who? Whether I mentioned Bob Armstrong or Bob Gillanders. Bob Who to both. Then just before I left they would call me a Capitalist stooge.
It's clear that your sympathies lie with those committing mob violence and that you have no sympathy for the legitimate right of students to attend class, that you couch your language in union terms to justify the muzzling of students who want to express their own rights legitimately - only under the union paradigm would 'members' as beneficiaries of a collective agreement not have the right to speak independently. The most militant group Classe as far as I know does not even have the legitimacy of being an actual student association that any student was required to be a member of as part of their university enrollment. They are also trying to go far outside any mandate they have and usurp the negotiations and speak on behalf of all students, even those which are members of other student associations. In the union lingo you like so much that is called 'poaching' members and is severly frowned upon.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 4th May, 2012, 02:18 PM.
When they say they are targetting symbols of Capitalism it means they are against Capitalism. Pure and simple. I'm also not really sure they would appreciate you twisting around that meaning.
Its all good and nice to be against capitalism but it is clear from every example of "socialism" experienced in the real world outside the realm of fiction that it just creates a different 1% who tend to be stupid and thuggish and unafraid of using violence to enforce their will.
It's clear that your sympathies lie with those committing mob violence and that you have no sympathy for the legitimate right of students to attend class.
The funny thing is with these sorts if they ever manage to gain power, that soon enough they go after the useful idiots who helped them get there so there is usually some poetic justice in the end.
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