Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

100% agree with this comment. They can't even keep drugs out of prisons.

... While we're at it the war on drugs should be terminated immediately. We fill our jails and courts with people for doing the same thing that our politicians and celebrities do without consequence. Cue Bill "I never inhaled" Clinton, Justin "I only inhaled once" Trudeau and of course Rob "I never stopped inhaling" Ford. Even George Bush is surrounded by stories of his wild eyed days which he neither confirmed nor denied. Barack "Hoover" Obama's drug use is not just a rumour. If three two term presidents can do drugs and one of our future prime ministers can do it as well perhaps we really need to rethink this policy where some people without power can spend months or years in jail and prison for doing the same thing. If they weren't clogging our courts and jails maybe the police would have time to solve more serious crimes and there would be room in jail for the real criminals once we caught them. Do you have any idea how much it costs to house one person in a prison? ...

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Formerly I was getting ready to hold my nose and vote NDP (a Green administration arguably being much more of a proven to be costly choice to Canada's economy - compare the Ontario Liberal's Green Energy policy results).

If you hold the beliefs that I think you do, how is that even possible for you?

The crack pipe dispensing machines in Vancouver, that Mulcair apparently approves of (if I can believe my ears about Sun News Network's claim, which I haven't been able to track down on the internet or elsewhere) disturbs me though.

I can believe it and that is probably the only policy of the NDP that I can agree with. I am not sure what the average AIDS patient, or hepatitis patient costs the health care system but I suspect that if making safe cheap glass pipes available saves one person from contracting those or the many other diseases that can be contracted by sharing more dangerous home made pipes then I am for it.

While we're at it the war on drugs should be terminated immediately. We fill our jails and courts with people for doing the same thing that our politicians and celebrities do without consequence. Cue Bill "I never inhaled" Clinton, Justin "I only inhaled once" Trudeau and of course Rob "I never stopped inhaling" Ford. Even George Bush is surrounded by stories of his wild eyed days which he neither confirmed nor denied. Barack "Hoover" Obama's drug use is not just a rumour. If three two term presidents can do drugs and one of our future prime ministers can do it as well perhaps we really need to rethink this policy where some people without power can spend months or years in jail and prison for doing the same thing. If they weren't clogging our courts and jails maybe the police would have time to solve more serious crimes and there would be room in jail for the real criminals once we caught them. Do you have any idea how much it costs to house one person in a prison?

Hence, from a moral point of view, Green may be my best option, but it makes no sense economically or strategically (in hoping to hold the Libs to a minority). Even not voting for any of these four parties, if that's the scenario indeed in my riding, means letting someone else choose what they think is the least evil, rather than me being able to at least offset their vote. I think as a voter I'm going to be in a terrible quandry this time around.

In the end it doesn't matter. We get the governments that we deserve. I know that I have been a bad, bad boy but do I really deserve this mess in Ontario????

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Hi Vlad:

Geez ........I sort of like in a way the Gaian concepts. Fits into my search into the "Supra-Natural"!

Bob A

Some people like to play with Ouija boards. It doesn't end well.

Vlad, so you prompted me to google the term "Gaian". I stumbled upon Gaian Greens. Hey dude, don't lump me in with those crazies. I have voted Green Party before, but I'm sure Elizabeth May et al are "mainstream" Greens, not this crazy bunch. Just trying to save the planet, cause it's a good idea.

Al Gore and David Suzuki are in it for the money. Elizabeth May has not given me any indication that she is anything other than a socialist zealot intent on redistributing our wealth. Fortunately she will never ever even sniff power.

[Jeff Verman]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Vlad, you may be putting aside your own earlier point that basically the media tend to favour the federal Liberals, at least in ignoring Trudeau's gaffes or downplaying them.

The type of voter the Conservatives count on are IMHO the type of voter who put more weight on the corruption factor. Harper and the Cons sold themselves as a squeaky clean party in past election(s). Even remotely hard core Liberal voters are more inclined to look the other way in continuing to elect their own corrupt (Liberal) politicians. Just look at Ontario's provincial Liberal government, for example.

Fwiw, I do agree Liberal corruption now (and probably historically) is much worse than anything by Cons/PCs. Personally, I've expressed how I feel about who not to vote for regardless. I'd vote for some version of a Tea Party in Canada in the next election if there was one. The real hope for voters is not of this world in the long run regardless, IMO. In that I have faith.

Brian Mulroney accepted a large sum of money in a paper bag as payment for work as a "consultant". Don't think it gets worse.

[Jeff Verman]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Jeff, I meant that in not liking being ripped off (through big-time government corruption), a responsible voter takes it as a very serious issue. Not all voters take it that seriously, they just vote along party lines blindly, or place other issues (perhaps often incorrectly) ahead of heavy corruption (a sign a political party or PM lacks basic integrity, i.e. should not be trusted). That's if voters are paying sufficient attention, another criteria for being responsible as a voter.

Drugs, including marijuana, can have different effects than alcohol. It is also harder to test when someone is sufficiently impaired by a drug like marijuana, compared to alcohol. In any case, legalizing such a street drug is arguably a big moral issue, at least for even mildly puritanical voters. Fwiw, kids (still?) go through the education system being taught that marijuana is a gateway drug. Perhaps one needs to study the history of many drug addicts' lives before disputing this educational tradition (which even many kids seem to dismiss as so much propagandist crap).

[edit: as an aside, it's too bad this thread is getting so lengthy. Earlier I posted my (still current) view that the federal Liberals would win the next election (either with a minority or a majority). One reason being (aside from the Cons base perhaps staying home in droves, due to the corruption issue) Trudeau's all-important (generally in politics) charisma, as compared to the lack of it in his opponents.]

1. I'm unaware of any voters who want to be ripped off. 'Seriousness' is always a matter of degree.

2. More people die from alchohol than marijuana. Alcohol is a far more serious threat to society (if it's a threat at all). And very few users go on to anything worse. Yes - some do. But some alcohol drinkers become alcoholics, or go onto serious drug use too.

[Bob Armstrong]

LIFE is a STRUGGLE! - Next Federal Gov't?

Hi Kevin:

One of my favourite life phrases is: LIFE is a STRUGGLE!

Bob A

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

In the end I will not vote for any of the Gaian religion candidates, ever.

Vlad, so you prompted me to google the term "Gaian". I stumbled upon Gaian Greens. Hey dude, don't lump me in with those crazies. I have voted Green Party before, but I'm sure Elizabeth May et al are "mainstream" Greens, not this crazy bunch. Just trying to save the planet, cause it's a good idea.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

You still have a responsibility to find the candidates that have similar beliefs. Opting out because you don't want to vote for any of the rascals is a valid response to our current situation. Voting for the lesser of the evils is another valid response. In the end I will not vote for any of the Gaian religion candidates, ever. The state of Ontario's economy under the Liberals is the perfect reflection of where we are headed if we put them in charge.

Like I wrote in an earlier post, I'd have a duty (IMO) to vote for the lesser evil if there was a dangerous fringe party that even theoretically might get elected in my riding if most folks stayed home.

In the coming election, in my riding I'll probably face the following choices (exclusively) again:

Con, Lib, NDP, Green.

Hence like you wrote, declining my vote (verbally), or spoiling my ballot are legitimate choices in my riding, at least.

Again, with this scenario in my riding, the least evil choices, from a principled (at least re: proven/probable party corruption/disintegrety) point of view, are NDP or Green (simply as they've never been in power federally).

The least evil choice, from a practical point of view, would seems to be the Cons, if one trusts their economic record up until now. However, in the long run there always seems to be some sort of a price for a nation to pay for serious sorts of corruption by their leaders (for those who read their scriptures, one can point this out, at least). I'm sure Nigel H. can run down all the scandals attached to the current government. One I recall, which is not corruption-related, perhaps, is the lavish spending on the Toronto G8 summit. For those who are into conspiracy theory, a green light may have even been given to brutalize some of the protestors.

Formerly I was getting ready to hold my nose and vote NDP (a Green administration arguably being much more of a proven to be costly choice to Canada's economy - compare the Ontario Liberal's Green Energy policy results). This has even strategic sense to it, if one accepts that the Cons will probably not form the next government. Then the NDP can keep the Liberals on a tight leash in case of a minority federal Liberal Government supported by the NDP. Possibly not many years will pass before another election would result, and in the meantime the Cons may have learned their lesson about corruption (one might hope).

The crack pipe dispensing machines in Vancouver, that Mulcair apparently approves of (if I can believe my ears about Sun News Network's claim, which I haven't been able to track down on the internet or elsewhere) disturbs me though. Now, I am also reminded that in Bob Rae's days as NDP Premier of Ontario, seniors were forced to share a building in Ottawa with supposedly reforming drug users. That's my recollection of at least one episode of a Lowell Green radio show. This sort of social engineering policy is comparable to financial corruption, in terms of a moral issue, at least for me.

Hence, from a moral point of view, Green may be my best option, but it makes no sense economically or strategically (in hoping to hold the Libs to a minority). Even not voting for any of these four parties, if that's the scenario indeed in my riding, means letting someone else choose what they think is the least evil, rather than me being able to at least offset their vote. I think as a voter I'm going to be in a terrible quandry this time around.

[Bob Armstrong]

Gaian Party of Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

I will not vote for any of the Gaian religion candidates, ever. The state of Ontario's economy under the Liberals is the perfect reflection of where we are headed if we put them in charge.

Hi Vlad:

Geez ........I sort of like in a way the Gaian concepts. Fits into my search into the "Supra-Natural"!

Bob A

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

The real hope for voters is not of this world in the long run regardless, IMO. In that I have faith.

You still have a responsibility to find the candidates that have similar beliefs. Opting out because you don't want to vote for any of the rascals is a valid response to our current situation. Voting for the lesser of the evils is another valid response. In the end I will not vote for any of the Gaian religion candidates, ever. The state of Ontario's economy under the Liberals is the perfect reflection of where we are headed if we put them in charge.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Vlad, you may be putting aside your own earlier point that basically the media tend to favour the federal Liberals, at least in ignoring Trudeau's gaffes or downplaying them.

The type of voter the Conservatives count on are IMHO the type of voter who put more weight on the corruption factor. Harper and the Cons sold themselves as a squeaky clean party in past election(s). Even remotely hard core Liberal voters are more inclined to look the other way in continuing to elect their own corrupt (Liberal) politicians. Just look at Ontario's provincial Liberal government, for example.

Fwiw, I do agree Liberal corruption now (and probably historically) is much worse than anything by Cons/PCs. Personally, I've expressed how I feel about who not to vote for regardless. I'd vote for some version of a Tea Party in Canada in the next election if there was one. The real hope for voters is not of this world in the long run regardless, IMO. In that I have faith.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Earlier I posted my (still current) view that the federal Liberals would win the next election (either with a minority or a majority). One reason being (aside from the Cons base perhaps staying home in droves, due to the corruption issue) Trudeau's all-important (generally in politics) charisma, as compared to the lack of it in his opponents.]

Your lack of faith disturbs me.

Trudeau has the inside track on winning simply because he is better looking than his opponents. In most elections the more attractive candidate wins. Of course, that is assuming that despite the media's ability to suppress the truth about those candidates that they favor, that our intrepid candidate doesn't self destruct. Given Trudeau's flair for putting his foot in his mouth I think making it through almost a year and a half or more without a series of gaffes seems rather unlikely. Harper is Machiavellian (I see that as a compliment). He is surrounded by some smart people and also by a crew of smarmy political operators. His task over the next few months is to do a good job of herding his cats. He sincerely believes in what he is doing.

There are quite a few more shoes to drop in the political corruption revelations with respect to the Senate and I suspect that many of them will drop on Liberal heads. The papers are full of dirty laundry on another prominent Liberal senator including the latest groping and sexual harassment allegations. This could get messy.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

Anything is possible - I agree. But historically, provincial change has come with federal change, for about as long as I've been alive. That was really my first and only point.

There is no fate but the one we make. Don't count on past patterns continuing into the future.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

If responsible voters means not wanting to get ripped off, I think almost everyone is responsible. Never met a voter who wanted to get ripped off. Ont the marijuana issue, we disagree. For the record, I smoke nothing at all at any time, but the idea that smoking a joint should be a "criminal" act is too similar to the idea that having a glass of wine is a criminal act. We once prohibited alcohol too - and that showed itself to be a foolish idea. Wine; alcohol - both contain hallucinogens. Alcohol can lead to alcholism, but doesn't have to; marijuana use could lead to heavy drug use, but almost always doesn't.

Just my opinions.

Jeff, I meant that in not liking being ripped off (through big-time government corruption), a responsible voter takes it as a very serious issue. Not all voters take it that seriously, they just vote along party lines blindly, or place other issues (perhaps often incorrectly) ahead of heavy corruption (a sign a political party or PM lacks basic integrity, i.e. should not be trusted). That's if voters are paying sufficient attention, another criteria for being responsible as a voter.

Drugs, including marijuana, can have different effects than alcohol. It is also harder to test when someone is sufficiently impaired by a drug like marijuana, compared to alcohol. In any case, legalizing such a street drug is arguably a big moral issue, at least for even mildly puritanical voters. Fwiw, kids (still?) go through the education system being taught that marijuana is a gateway drug. Perhaps one needs to study the history of many drug addicts' lives before disputing this educational tradition (which even many kids seem to dismiss as so much propagandist crap).

[edit: as an aside, it's too bad this thread is getting so lengthy. Earlier I posted my (still current) view that the federal Liberals would win the next election (either with a minority or a majority). One reason being (aside from the Cons base perhaps staying home in droves, due to the corruption issue) Trudeau's all-important (generally in politics) charisma, as compared to the lack of it in his opponents.]

[Jeff Verman]

Re: Canada - Next Federal Gov't?

I'm beginning to wish for even the party of Mike Harris. At least when he stabbed you, it was in the front, after telling you he was going to do it.

What's a (Common Sense) Revlolution without a good stabbing....?