Originally posted by Ken Craft
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CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Originally posted by Jean Hébert View PostThat would be nice Kerry, but actually there is no need to copy and translate anything to point out new stuff that appears to be near fatal oversights in that deal. Looking at it is pretty much like looking at a chess position. At first things might appear simple and straightforward. But with time the truth of the position slowly comes up to reveal deep and sometimes disturbing content (or beautiful content, depending on the point of view :)).
For example, look at this two line article that is in the crux of the matter.
"Annual fees collected are placed in a trust, earmarked for FIDE-related* expenses, overseen by 50% FQE Trustees and 50% CFC Trustees."
At first sight nothing wrong with it. How can things be more fair than fifty-fifty ? But after a while one realise the true meaning of it : both sides (but more importantly the FQE) will have a right of veto on how to spend the FQE money put in that thrust, meant for international expenses ! If for some reason the FQE side does not agree on how or how much or anything else, it can say "no" and paralyse everything. Potentially this could prevent, for example, the national teams to attend an olympiad. I already hear you saying that "the FQE would never do such a thing". Well, you would probably be right but who knows for sure when the other side will decide to play hardball, especially if given a perfect weapon to do so ? A chess federation leadership is a pretty volatile thing...
The bottom line is : can such a deal be expected to work out when both sides have an absolute veto on decisions ?
Now as if this was not enough, there is another worrysome question for both sides that has apparently not been considered. What happens with the money in that thrust once the agreement is over (after three years), if no new deal has been agreed upon between the CFC and the FQE ? What happens when the "trustees" no longer have legal existence ? Would the money be returned to where it comes from (the FQE) or find itself in a legal void certain to create everlasting legal problems likely to outlive most of us ?
It is not just on the french side that this deal must be examined and analysed thoroughly. Its potential to create lasting problems for everybody is not only real, it is most probable.
You are very good at predicting disaster. You don't seem to be anywhere near as good at making things work. You are like the bystander telling the builder that the cathedral will never stand up without any better ideas of your own. Or like the guest at the wedding who keeps telling every one it will never last because you don't see what she sees in him.Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 27th June, 2012, 08:22 AM.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Originally posted by Jean Hébert View PostThat would be nice Kerry, but actually there is no need to copy and translate anything to point out new stuff that appears to be near fatal oversights in that deal. Looking at it is pretty much like looking at a chess position. At first things might appear simple and straightforward. But with time the truth of the position slowly comes up to reveal deep and sometimes disturbing content (or beautiful content, depending on the point of view :)).
For example, look at this two line article that is in the crux of the matter.
"Annual fees collected are placed in a trust, earmarked for FIDE-related* expenses, overseen by 50% FQE Trustees and 50% CFC Trustees."
At first sight nothing wrong with it. How can things be more fair than fifty-fifty ? But after a while one realise the true meaning of it : both sides (but more importantly the FQE) will have a right of veto on how to spend the FQE money put in that thrust, meant for international expenses ! If for some reason the FQE side does not agree on how or how much or anything else, it can say "no" and paralyse everything. Potentially this could prevent, for example, the national teams to attend an olympiad. I already hear you saying that "the FQE would never do such a thing". Well, you would probably be right but who knows for sure when the other side will decide to play hardball, especially if given a perfect weapon to do so ? A chess federation leadership is a pretty volatile thing...
The bottom line is : can such a deal be expected to work out when both sides have an absolute veto on decisions ?
Now as if this was not enough, there is another worrysome question for both sides that has apparently not been considered. What happens with the money in that thrust once the agreement is over (after three years), if no new deal has been agreed upon between the CFC and the FQE ? What happens when the "trustees" no longer have legal existence ? Would the money be returned to where it comes from (the FQE) or find itself in a legal void certain to create everlasting legal problems likely to outlive most of us ?
It is not just on the french side that this deal must be examined and analysed thoroughly. Its potential to create lasting problems for everybody is not only real, it is most probable.
You are bringing out some interesting questions which deserve clarification.
The document I believe was a framework for future relations between the two organizations.
As a lawyer once explained to me....the best contract in the World means nothing if both parties are not "de bonne foi".
Larry
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Hi Jean,
You confused me with Kerry. I was applauding the fact that the French chesstalk seemed to be having a better discussion of the agreement. The language in the draft agreement looks like it still needs some fine-tuning. It appears to me that a lawyer probably wasn't used in its drafting.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Originally posted by Ken Craft View PostMore and livelier discussion on the French board. I'll leave those with better French skills than I to provide a summary.
For example, look at this two line article that is in the crux of the matter.
"Annual fees collected are placed in a trust, earmarked for FIDE-related* expenses, overseen by 50% FQE Trustees and 50% CFC Trustees."
At first sight nothing wrong with it. How can things be more fair than fifty-fifty ? But after a while one realise the true meaning of it : both sides (but more importantly the FQE) will have a right of veto on how to spend the FQE money put in that thrust, meant for international expenses ! If for some reason the FQE side does not agree on how or how much or anything else, it can say "no" and paralyse everything. Potentially this could prevent, for example, the national teams to attend an olympiad. I already hear you saying that "the FQE would never do such a thing". Well, you would probably be right but who knows for sure when the other side will decide to play hardball, especially if given a perfect weapon to do so ? A chess federation leadership is a pretty volatile thing...
The bottom line is : can such a deal be expected to work out when both sides have an absolute veto on decisions ?
Now as if this was not enough, there is another worrysome question for both sides that has apparently not been considered. What happens with the money in that thrust once the agreement is over (after three years), if no new deal has been agreed upon between the CFC and the FQE ? What happens when the "trustees" no longer have legal existence ? Would the money be returned to where it comes from (the FQE) or find itself in a legal void certain to create everlasting legal problems likely to outlive most of us ?
It is not just on the french side that this deal must be examined and analysed thoroughly. Its potential to create lasting problems for everybody is not only real, it is most probable.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
More and livelier discussion on the French board. I'll leave those with better French skills than I to provide a summary.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
This agreement will allow for anyone to submit a tournament to be rated FQE or CFC or both as long as all participants are either member of the CFC or the FQE and as long as the respective rating fees are paid. These tournaments can also be submitted to FIDE as long as they are submited through the CFC and rules for such ratings are followed.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
The FQE rating system is already open to non-members of the FQE. Anyone can submit a blitz tournament to be FQE-rated - one does not need to be a member.
This feature is rarely used (maybe 5-10 times since it was instituted a couple of years ago), but it is there.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Originally posted by Hugh Brodie View PostFrench discussion group(s).
One idea on Parlons Echecs was to close down the FQE rating system. I'd suggest the opposite: expand it. Open it to FQE non-members. Non-members imply no sacrifice of $9 / $4.
A chess federation without a rating system is like a girlfriend without a place of her own. This agreement is not a marriage contract.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Originally posted by Paul Leblanc View PostI've been to two live AGMs and four online meetings and the latter are far superior in just about every way I can think of - attendence, orderly process, time management, record keeping. The CFC/FQE deal can be debated just as well on line as face to face.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
As a Quebec governor, I will attempt to make a summary of concerns/complaints/suggestions coming from the French discussion group(s) in time for the annual meeting.
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Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!
Nice to see we are leading the way with our on line meetings. I've been to two live AGMs and four online meetings and the latter are far superior in just about every way I can think of - attendence, orderly process, time management, record keeping. The CFC/FQE deal can be debated just as well on line as face to face. This year especially, a poll indicated that only a dozen governors were planning to attend the AGM in Victoria whereas two or three times that many will be at the virtual meeting.
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Re: Re : A Canadian grandmaster's opinion
Originally posted by Jean Hébert View PostIt is not true that the FQE will for ever be willing to serve 9$ per adult member and 4$ per junior member every year to the CFC on a silver platter, while the CFC does next to nothing in return that it is not already doing!
(2010 - 2,000 http://web.archive.org/web/201008311...orie=1&id=2914)
IMHO, per agreement the "payment" will be for similar reasons - to support players in FIDE events (which are even listed).
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Re: Re : A Canadian grandmaster's opinion
Originally posted by Felix Dumont View PostI don't think GM Spraggett really understood the deal...
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Re: A Canadian grandmaster's opinion
Originally posted by Louis Morin View PostFrom Kevin Spraggett's blog:
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