CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

[Felix Dumont]

Re : A Canadian grandmaster's opinion

From Kevin Spraggett's blog:

CFC to recognize separate FQE membership status in FIDE!! Worse still, an initial 3-year agreement giving the FQE separate, but equal, rights as all of the rest of Canada in the selection process of all Canadian representatives to all international chess events including the Olympiad, World Cup as well as FIDE Congresses will be ratified without any face to face meeting of the CFC.

This year the CFC has decided not to hold the usual Annual Meeting (AGM) of delegates of the federation. Instead, a virtual meeting will be held via the internet. This is the first time in history that a face to face meeting will not have been held. This also marks the first time ANY national chess federation in the world will do so.

This is particularly worrisome, since the FQE-CFC problem is an intriguing political maze that has defied solution for more than 30 years. Without adequate public discussion of the complex issues behind why the FQE has refused to be a member of the CFC, the current CFC president is hoping to pull off what is in effect a coup d'etat inside the Canadian chess community.

There is the question that the entire process is not only illegal but unconstitutional according to the CFC's own regulations. The CFC represents Canada to the world as a member of FIDE, the international chess body. As well, the CFC sends teams to the Chess Olympiad, World Youth Chess Championship, and other major international events. By now allowing the FQE an equal say in these issues--which no other provincial federation is allowed --and by recognizing the unique right of the FQE to represent ANY french-speaking player anywhere in Canada, the CFC is opening itself to law suits from any and every provincial chess federation.

There are numerous french-speaking communities outside of Quebec--numbering in the hundreds of thousands of Canadian citizens-- and this agreement recognizes the right of the FQE to represent their interests in chess! Has anyone involved in brokering this agreement even bothered to ask them?

Furthermore, any member of the FQE will have EXACTLY the same rights as every other member of the CFC (anywhere in Canada), and will only have to pay 9 dollars a year--which will be generously paid for by the FQE!. Adult members elsewhere in Canada have to pay anywhere between 35 and 40 dollars for the same rights.

All Canadian chess players will be losing if this deal gets ratified, as they will be in effect, subsidizing the FQE memberships while accepting to be 2nd class citizens in their own province! It is expected that sometime in the next 3 years , when the initial agreement will be up for re-negotiation, the CFC will have formally petitioned FIDE for separate FQE membership.

I will keep readers up to date as more information becomes available. Thus far the CFC and the FQE have made sparse the exact details of the deal. The whole deal smacks of pure pork barrel politics!

At least you ''forgot'' to include the very first sentence ;)
I don't think GM Spraggett really understood the deal...

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: A Canadian grandmaster's opinion

Did I miss the part in the deal where it says that the FQE would get standing with FIDE?

[Louis Morin]

A Canadian grandmaster's opinion

From Kevin Spraggett's blog:

CFC to recognize separate FQE membership status in FIDE!! Worse still, an initial 3-year agreement giving the FQE separate, but equal, rights as all of the rest of Canada in the selection process of all Canadian representatives to all international chess events including the Olympiad, World Cup as well as FIDE Congresses will be ratified without any face to face meeting of the CFC.

This year the CFC has decided not to hold the usual Annual Meeting (AGM) of delegates of the federation. Instead, a virtual meeting will be held via the internet. This is the first time in history that a face to face meeting will not have been held. This also marks the first time ANY national chess federation in the world will do so.

This is particularly worrisome, since the FQE-CFC problem is an intriguing political maze that has defied solution for more than 30 years. Without adequate public discussion of the complex issues behind why the FQE has refused to be a member of the CFC, the current CFC president is hoping to pull off what is in effect a coup d'etat inside the Canadian chess community.

There is the question that the entire process is not only illegal but unconstitutional according to the CFC's own regulations. The CFC represents Canada to the world as a member of FIDE, the international chess body. As well, the CFC sends teams to the Chess Olympiad, World Youth Chess Championship, and other major international events. By now allowing the FQE an equal say in these issues--which no other provincial federation is allowed --and by recognizing the unique right of the FQE to represent ANY french-speaking player anywhere in Canada, the CFC is opening itself to law suits from any and every provincial chess federation.

There are numerous french-speaking communities outside of Quebec--numbering in the hundreds of thousands of Canadian citizens-- and this agreement recognizes the right of the FQE to represent their interests in chess! Has anyone involved in brokering this agreement even bothered to ask them?

Furthermore, any member of the FQE will have EXACTLY the same rights as every other member of the CFC (anywhere in Canada), and will only have to pay 9 dollars a year--which will be generously paid for by the FQE!. Adult members elsewhere in Canada have to pay anywhere between 35 and 40 dollars for the same rights.

All Canadian chess players will be losing if this deal gets ratified, as they will be in effect, subsidizing the FQE memberships while accepting to be 2nd class citizens in their own province! It is expected that sometime in the next 3 years , when the initial agreement will be up for re-negotiation, the CFC will have formally petitioned FIDE for separate FQE membership.

I will keep readers up to date as more information becomes available. Thus far the CFC and the FQE have made sparse the exact details of the deal. The whole deal smacks of pure pork barrel politics!

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I asked the same question and apparently the FQE was not interested in having CFC Governors at this time. Quebec governors will continue to be elected by the rest of the Governors.

At the beginning of 2012, The Monarchy had surprising support in Quebec. Not as high as the rest of Canada, but still. Come this year with Jubilee and royal tours galore, support for The Monarchy went up--but it went down in Quebec. Could it be that, like The Monarchy, they view the CFC as a necessary evil, or a convenient fiction; something to be tolerated, but please don't remind me of it, please don't shove it in my face? The performance of choosing 5 or 25 CFC Governors every year would be just that, just as the dull (unless one is emotionally invested) royal media coverage became ennuyant.

The 1932 model of the CFC was that Governors leave their provincial ties at the door. In the hybrid future, one province will negotiate directly with the CFC on a well-defined menu of issues. The status quo didn't work; this might.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I don't see a formula for converting those $9 and $4 payments into governors. Quebec should have lots of governors. Taxation with representation is an important principle. It may seem expedient to shortcut that step, but look at what happened under Colonialism. I address this point to the way the CFC works now. Elsewhere, I have suggested that the CFC shift from its 1932 vision to a setup with strong provinces.

I asked the same question and apparently the FQE was not interested in having CFC Governors at this time. Quebec governors will continue to be elected by the rest of the Governors.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Four people who took part in the 1978 FQE-CFC meeting, post to Chesstalk 34 years later. I haven't referred to that [later repudiated] agreement in responding to the current one, I just looked at the group photo!

The clauses aren't numbered in the PDF, but 6 and 7 don't explicitly recognize FQE ratings.

6-- FQE members would be allowed to participate to Canadian Nationals at the same conditions as if they were CFC members.
7-- FQE members would be considered for inclusion on Canadian National Teams on the same basis as CFC members.

It isn't the issue it used to be, because CFC championships more resemble open events now. But that may revert. One would want to know whether a Quebec player with a 2200 FQE rating would be just as eligible for the Zonal as a BC player with a 2200 CFC rating. It's even more crucial for national team selection.

I don't see a formula for converting those $9 and $4 payments into governors. Quebec should have lots of governors. Taxation with representation is an important principle. It may seem expedient to shortcut that step, but look at what happened under Colonialism. I address this point to the way the CFC works now. Elsewhere, I have suggested that the CFC shift from its 1932 vision to a setup with strong provinces.

We have direct experience when two sides had equal representation. Both sides were "supposed to" nominate representatives who were objective, but only one side did so. The other side voted every issue cynically and won all the disputes. That's what happened in the USA-Canada border commissions.

Congratulations to the parties for an excellent agreement framework!

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

I'd like to see the agreement ratified. It has the potential to be good for the players and chess.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

If this goes through, I'll find solace in some good laughs from badly translated websites and print articles from the CFC...

Could we, at the very least, wait until automated translation is readable before signing that kind of deal?

Please?

Thank you,

Mathieu

[Jean Hébert]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

What are these annual fees to FIDE exactly ? Would the CFC be happy with the FQE paying a per capita share of these (around 25%) in exchange to have normal access to FIDE ratings and a formula to recognize the FQE ratings (for national championships purposes) and give Quebec players equal chances ?

Jean Hébert


Taken from a thread Mr. Hébert wrote on March 3rd on this blog.
It appears to me that this agreement roughly follows the suggestion of Mr. Hébert...

Give us some figures Mr Poulin before trying to use my words for your ends. What are the annual fees and expenses related to FIDE ? How have you come to believe that the FQE should pay annually to the CFC 9$ per adult member and 4$ per junior to have access to FIDE ratings that might mean something to about 2% of the FQE membership ? How can you be so sure that paying 7-8,000$ (or more I suspect) annually to the CFC is financially justified AND viable for the FQE ? How come this deal comes up just before you are about to leave your position as FQE president and won't have to deal with the consequences ?

[Marc Poulin]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

What are these annual fees to FIDE exactly ? Would the CFC be happy with the FQE paying a per capita share of these (around 25%) in exchange to have normal access to FIDE ratings and a formula to recognize the FQE ratings (for national championships purposes) and give Quebec players equal chances ?

Jean Hébert


Taken from a thread Mr. Hébert wrote on March 3rd on this blog.
It appears to me that this agreement roughly follows the suggestion of Mr. Hébert...

[Marc Poulin]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Kerry, I would like to thank you for your good words. On my side I would like to thank Michael von Keitz, without his willingness to take on the political risk associated with this agreement, this would have never happened. Gordon Ritchie also played a critical role by establishing the initial contacts between the two federations and by clearly sensing were the compromise lied. Thanks Gordon for taking the initiative. Hopefully this agreement will be ratified and this will start a new era in the relationships between the FQE and the CFC for the benefit of all chess players in the country.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Jean,

Would you like to tell us what a fair exchange of services between these two organizations would look like through your eyes?

Larry

Larry,
Unfortunately it is too late for that. If my opinion had been seeked while this agreement was discussed, I would have been happy to give it and make "constructive" suggestions. Now I can only react to it, knowing that the people involved in that deal will defend every line of it to death. Overall, most measures make sense, but to put them all in the same basket at what appears to me to be a ridiculous price tag that will cripple the FQE and its members doesn't. This is not a "WIN-WIN deal", this is a CFC win and an FQE loss. And this is not the kind of agreement that lasts.

[Larry Bevand]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Imagination does not count when it comes to interpret a written agreement. FIDE related expenses will mean anything loosely related to FIDE, including and first of all expenses of national teams going to olympiads. With a contribution of 10000$ a year, FQE members will end up paying for most of these expenses by themselves. As I said, governors, jump on it as fast as you can, unless you don't want it to appear too good to be true to the other party. You won't find a better deal anywhere.

Jean,

Would you like to tell us what a fair exchange of services between these two organizations would look like through your eyes?

Larry

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Imagination does not count when it comes to interpret a written agreement. FIDE related expenses will mean anything loosely related to FIDE, including and first of all expenses of national teams going to olympiads. With a contribution of 10000$ a year, FQE members will end up paying for most of these expenses by themselves. As I said, governors, jump on it as fast as you can, unless you don't want it to appear too good to be true to the other party. You won't find a better deal anywhere.

Does the FQE have honorary membership for titled players? My reading of the agreement is that if they do not, Quebec residents will have to be charged the FQE membership amount or more. That to avoid arbitrage.

"CFC will charge the same fees (or higher) to Quebec residents who would request membership in the CFC in order to avoid arbitrage."

The administration of the money will be 50 percent CFC and FQE administered. I don't understand how a tie would be broken.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: CFC and the FQE have come to an agreement!

Shouldn't members be informed about it before it is ratified ? And discussed before it is ratified ?

Sure and maybe we should go full force on democracy and have a referendum where each FQE and CFC member gets to vote on it before it can be ratified. We should also hold online input forums at every stage of the CFC/FQE discussions. Hopefully we might have an agreement in place at the end of 5 years or more, but hey there will have been full public disclosure, thorough membership forums and extensive studies and counter proposals at every step of the way. I can think of at least a dozen ammendments and modifications to this agreement I could propose. And that's just me.

However, as you keep suggesting that it's a no-brainer and should be accepted by the CFC without delay I don't see why you want to slow the process down. The governors of the CFC are put in place to govern so let them get on with it.

If the membership starts developing a whole bunch of different interpretations of what it means that is not helpful to the process.